Anyone coming from a F650?

yim4 · Post by **yim4** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:48 pm

I currently have an F650CS that got rear-ended, and I'm trying to find a replacement. Has anyone come from An F650CS or GS to the R1200R? The main things I'm wondering is how different the seating position is, and also how the weight difference affected the switchover. Any help would be great, thanks.

munchmeister · Post by **munchmeister** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:58 pm

I still have an F650GS,but recently crashed my R1150R. The RR is a wonderfully balanced bike and the weight was not an issue for me. Seating is upright although the footpeg position put my knees up higher thant the F, but still no problem. I really loved my R1150R but sadly, it went up in smoke, with me under it, total loss. (http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=10287). It was a beautiful bike.

NeilS · Post by **NeilS** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:22 pm

Not exactly coming from an F650, but my son has an F650GS which I ride frequently, so I can make some comparisons.

Riding positions are similar, but you're a bit higher and more upright on the F. Fuel tank seems more "imposing" on the RR. I don't feel the need for handlebar risers or barbacks on the F, but I will probably do this (haven't yet) on my RR.

Weights seem similar. RR, obviously, has much more power, vibrates less, has better brakes, and handles better. Gets worse gas mileage. And costs much more.

Post by **Caroanbill** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:02 pm

I think you'll find the R1200R quite OK coming from a scarver. I have an F650CS - actually, my second since a mate crashed my first.

I've had a variety of other BMWs. My most recent was an R1150RS which I sold after a year's ownership principally because I couldn't get at all confident on that bike. I'd actually come back to riding via the 650 after losing riding confidence and riding pleasure after a silly little accident . The RS ride position was too spooky for me - I'm now only comfy with nice wide bars and a reasonably upright stance (I counter-steer strongly).

I was a bit nervous testing the R12R - I am nervous on all new bikes, and rarely swap bikes because I feel very confident on the F650CS and not at all so on other bikes ...

.. so I'm a good tester for the R1200R from the 'can I manage it?' perspective!

I have wanted a manageable all-rounder and tourer awhile - hence the RS - but wanted only enough weight to make the suspension keep my CG from po-going about as does the light (but otherwise competent) 650CS. Lusted after the F800 but one short ride on the F800ST convinced me I'd never ride it - my feet were tucked up my bum.

Enter the Roadster. I'd passed on the R1150R because 238kg was simply too much, even though I liked the ride position. The new Roadster appeared here in Sydney without fanfare and I sat one just out of interest. Don't need 80kW, but I do like the idea of 223kg!

Oh dear. It fitted me perfectly (I will drop the pegs and raise the bars, but only a wee bit). It was very capable and confidence-inspiring on the road, even on a slightly greasy surface. Bye-bye F800R (if you'll ever exist), hello R1200R. I has more power then I feel I need, so I have ordered the ASC to tame that a bit (one early slip would spoil a riding day for me).

For all I'm a nervous rider, I do ride rough roads, gravel roads and I do long distances when I ride. The F650CS is remarkably capable for a small bike (here's my kitted-up one: http://faq.f650.com/CSFAQs/CSAftermarke ... ystemCases ), but I know that more torque, a little more weight, better brakes (I actually like the partially linked system) and telelever will give me much easier long days. I wouldn't subject a pillion to te scarver, so the Roadster will solve that problem (with a better seat).Better luggage and lights on the Roadster won't go astray either.

On the strength of my test ride so far, I find the Roadster very manageable and it builds rather tha erodes my confidence. If the power is daunting, that's fiexdbyb taking it easy (I well remember nervously starting out on my first BIG bike, a Suzuki GS750 .. and found I didn't HAVE to crack the throttle wide opemn every time).

Gripes? Lousy low seat withporr pillion accomodation (on the list for a Sargent) choppy front suspension at city speed (Wilbers on the way). Other farkles will be bigger screen (Cee Bailey 16"), bar-backs and a Suburban Machinery peg kit. Hunting a hugger, too - I'd prefer a decent mudguard but 'style' seems to dicate there'll be no market for that. Niggles, really - what bike is perfect out of the box?

BTW, I LOOOVE my scarver. Apart from giving me riding confidence back (for which I'l be forever grateful), it's the sweetest city / quick blat bike I've ridden. I have way too much fun on this bike to ever sell it.

yim4 · Post by **yim4** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:18 pm

Thanks for all the responses. Caroanbill, you seem to have been in a similar situation to mine. I live in San Francisco, so the F65CS was perfect for weaving, splitting, and stop go traffic maneuvering. Another concern I have for the 1200R is its wider width (for splitting), and its agility as compared to the CS. Do you have any comments on that? I am basically wondering if the 1200R would be a suitable city bike.

Thanks much.

Post by **Caroanbill** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:31 pm

I don't plan on using the R1200Ras a city bike, but based on my test it will do the job. I doubt it's actually wider in use than the CS: after all, it's handlebar width that stops you. Cylinder width is rarely an issue on the streets. You'll have 30kg extra weight, but it's low and the 'bars have good leverage. A couple fo reviews mentioned that the Telelever on the R1200R is (finally) suited to low-speed work - I agree, though I find the front shock a bit choppy on city streets and will fix it with a Wilbers. Being able to separately drag the rear brake in tight turns also helps (I regeularly use the rear to tighten a turn). It also helps smooth takeoffs with a pillion .. just a gentle drag until you're underway.

As you did, I just love my Scarver around town - I have steep harbourside streets and lanes around my home, and narrow streets and lanes where I tend to go for coffee etc. No reason for me to take out the Roadster (when it gets here) since the Scarver is made for the job. Scarver ABS is a bit more abrupt, but otherwise it's just perfect.

Me? I'd find a good replacement Scarver and have the best of both worlds!

Post by **deilenberger** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:30 am

Caroanbill wrote:I think you'll find the R1200R quite OK coming from a scarver. I have an F650CS - actually, my second since a mate crashed my first.

And I noted your bike "history":

R12R wASC (ordered), F650CS tourer-lite
Ex R65LS, R80, K100RT, K1100LT, R1150RS

Mine (skipping years of brit and Japanese stuff is: R65, K100RT, K75S, R1150RS, and the R12R.

Fifth one seems the charm. The R65 was buzzy and tall (I'm short of inseam). The K100RT was buzzy, HOT HOT HOT, heavy, top-heavy and tall. The K75S was tall and top-heavy - although I lowered it a bit and it was acceptable - it was never that comfortable for long days rides. The R1150RS was decent handling, decent riding (did Wilbers on it) but it BUZZED so badly I hated riding it. I was in agony from the buzz and the weight on my wrists at slower speeds. It also was a bit tall and heavy for me.

The R12R - isn't hot. It's not heavy. It doesn't buzz. The engine response is wonderful. The transmission is wonderful, and believe it or not - I find the low seat reasonably comfortable (after an 1,800 mile trip on it a week ago - which was the acid test.) With the addition of a FreedomAir cushion, the seat is an all-day seat for me.

I think you'll love the R12R. My only complaint - that I'm slowly adapting to - is takeoff on uphills is a bit touchy due to the fast throttle and high first gear. It's particularly a challenge if there is a left turn involved and cross-traffic. Or a blind turn. I've gotten better at it - especially with riding in the West Virginia and North Carolina mountains, where there isn't a straight or level road to be found (if you stay off the interstates.)

I think the Roadster is a "keeper" for me. It's the first brand new bike I bought in 30 years - and based on that interval - I'd be looking for a souped up wheelchair for the next one.

Post by **Deans BMW** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:35 pm

May I suggest that you try one of the F800's, either the S or ST, you will be more than amazed.

Post by **Caroanbill** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:12 pm

Don - thanks for your comments. I'd already bookmarked your site since our exchange on the RS forum. I partciularly noted your comments on the throttle transition, because (nervous nellie that I am) hairpins (switchbacks) are where I get most timid. I think a dragged rear brake and some practice should fix me. I plan on doing a refresher skills course on the R1200R before I venture out in a group, so the poor buggers don't have to wait for me on tight roads ( even nice guys shouldn't be taken for granted).

Dean - I did ride the F800 and loved (loved) the motor. It sounds great and goes like stink. I'm already a fan of belt drive. I even liked the suspension and brakes (though I prefer the R1200R set-up). The 820mm seat height is too tall, and the lower seat (as they often are) is too much a compromise and shoves my heels up my bum (no, no, don't go there!). I no longer bend into a ride position, and simply choose not to: motorcycling is about pleasure first of all - endurance, skill, thrills come second - and I couldn't find pleasure riding the F800 with that seating position, even with barbacks and lower pegs. I'd wait for an F800R, but I doubt there'll be one soon AND I doubt the seat height will be fixed - that'd require a new frame. I imagaine some self-absorbed engineer or designer thinks riders will adapt to the bike, forgetting that the F800 should be BMW's least challenging bike if it's to succeed at entry / returning rider level. Hopefully a marketer will get some say in the F800R .. it so, I'd be tempted (it also needs a longer rear end to take functional panniers - those K12S/R expanders are worse than a joke, in my view).

I think my garage will be a happy one with both F650CS and R1200R!

Post by **mogu83** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:37 pm

[quote="Caroanbill"]Don - thanks for your comments. I'd already bookmarked your site since our exchange on the RS forum. I partciularly noted your comments on the throttle transition, because (nervous nellie that I am) hairpins (switchbacks) are where I get most timid. I think a dragged rear brake and some practice should fix me. I plan on doing a refresher skills course on the R1200R before I venture out in a group, so the poor buggers don't have to wait for me on tight roads ( even nice guys shouldn't be taken for granted).

Caroanbill
After a spirited run across Rt129 (The Dragon), with no traffic, I can tell you there is no problem with the throttle or suspencion everything works just fine.
Also try not to develop the habit of 'Trail breaking' it's a crutch for a poor rider and you will never develop a decent corner speed if you get in the habit of using it. Set up your speed going into a turn and you should be on the throttle coming out , it's easier to control the bike with the throttle than the brake, it's all about being smooth.

Post by **Caroanbill** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:39 pm

Sweetie, I've been riding 25 of the past 28 years

. [edit - just in case that sounds off-key, it's aussie pseudi-camp humour, not meant to be offensive] I've done numerous advanced skills courses (sigh). My riding habits are now up against my physical and neurophysical limits

, and one of them is a kind of 'horizontal vertigo' in corners, which turns into a mega-vertigo when horizontal and vertical combine in a hairpin (switchback). So I know there is no way I'm going to carry more speed through a bend than I do. I use the dragged rear just as I was taught in an advance riding class to give me the control I need to get through. Control, not speed, is my objective.

I don't want to be faster. I don't want to be the best rider out there. I've had my big offs, including a lot of metal in my legs and an intersting jig in my clavicle. I ride to enjoy being 'in' the landscape, as I've done for 28 years. My mates ride with me coz they enjoy my company and they wait for me as / when required.

When the good lord endowed me, I got intellectual rather than physical or dexterity gifts. I did get some empathy too - I hope. Anyhow, I am quite happy with what s/he gave me.

Consequently, I ride bikes like the F650CS and the R1200R, and enjoy them too. Just maybe not the way some suids think I should, but that troubles me not a wit either. My life is, in fact, pretty d*mn fine - even at walking pace

.

Guys like you want to help, I know

. You give me tips riding, telemarking, sea-kayaking. I smile. Sometimes I do wish I could help you with your empathy

, but - like physical confidence - that's largely a gift too. So maybe, when we next share a metaphorical beer after a ride, you'll sense that my eyes glaze ever so slightly when you offer kind suggestions - but I don't mean it to be insulting anymore than you do your suggestions(

again). I'll still enjoying buying you the next beer. I'll even make it a decent hoppy pilsener, or fruity pale ale, or whatever - coz no matter whether we blast or bleat, beer is still god's way of telling us s/he loves us and wants us to be happy

.. c'n I take my pills now?

Post by **mogu83** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:20 pm

Sweetie ?? Well that's a first. I guess things are a little different on your side of the globe.

No offence meant or taken. Just my thoughts on the bikes throttle and a riding hint. I couldn't see the long gray hair or quarter of a centuries worth of riding experience. Sorry to hear of your physical and dexterity short comings, it shows a great deal of tenacity to continue riding after admitting your not physically up to it.

BTW: The beer would be a dark ale served at room temperature

(IMHO,etc,etc)

Post by **Caroanbill** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:01 pm

Dark Ale it is! Not sure about room temperature ... but I cut my teeth on a dark, top-fermented ale known hereabouts as Toohey's Old (or just "black")

In truth, a couple of mates wonder what you're probably wondering - why do I ride? The answer is simple - I love it. I love being in the landscape, through and over mountains, across the desert, along by the sea. I even like (some) wild weather. I ride at 7/10ths of MY limits, which equates to a little over legal speed, give or take the odd blat when I feel up to it (an F650CS will - just - do 195km/h, for instance). Over a reasonable distance, I'm as quick as a sportsbike because I'm an experienced rider who doesn't dilly-dally at stops (etc), and over short curvy distances my fast mates simply take an extra espresso while I catch up .. slow as I am, I'm usually the navigator coz I've ridden more places and know the roads, small towns (ie where to find decent coffee) best, and the likely weather ..

Hence a bike like the R1200R: more capable than I need, yet not at all daunting, and - most importantly - very able to heighten the experience !
... in just the way bum-up sportsbikes (and now even full-dress tourers)don't, at least for me. My well set-up F650CS is much the same, if a little lighter, bouncier and slower.

So this thread's question - should I worry going to an R1200R from an F650CS - is right up my alley ...
.. and the answer is still - the transition will be fine, assuming you take it easy.

Post by **Radar in oz** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:35 pm

I have very recently traded up from an F650GS to an R1200R.

I tried the F800ST first assuming that would be my next bike, but one ride on the R1200R and bingo.

We took it up to Port Macquarie on the long weekend (including through Friday's storm in Newcastle)

The R1200R is much better that the F650GS 2-up for fairly obvious reasons. Is much better on the freeway due to greater stability, and is easy to ride on bendy roads like the Oxley Hwy where it inspires a lot of confidence. The weight difference is not very noticeable as it feels like it has a lower centre of gravity than the F650.

I owned an R80GS years ago and I found it nice to return to the boxer twin.

I think anyone would find the transition very very easy, and I'd be surprised if you are not more confident in riding this bike at higher speeds than the F.

As you can probably tell, I certainly have no regrets.

Cheers
Radar

Lost Rider · Post by **Lost Rider** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:54 pm

Kinda opposite but... I'm going to buy a F650 soon to take the stress of my off-roads adventure's off my 1200R. I test rode a 98' F650 funduro last wekk, and It was a blast to ride. small, light, totally throwable. Just what I need to get in some crazy spots....
Something like this:

what do you think? the price is right ( no financing).......

yim4 · Post by **yim4** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:43 pm

ChiTown wrote:Kinda opposite but... I'm going to buy a F650 soon to take the stress of my off-roads adventure's off my 1200R. I test rode a 98' F650 funduro last wekk, and It was a blast to ride. small, light, totally throwable. Just what I need to get in some crazy spots....
Something like this:

what do you think? the price is right ( no financing).......

Looks a lot better than mine:

Phillo · Post by **Phillo** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:00 pm

Well when I started reading on this topic I had a great urge to respond but caroanbill beat me to it, I think he has just about covered everything I would have had to say apart from perhaps the fact that IMO the R1200R possibly tends to make you a better rider than you are ?? - I love it

Post by **deilenberger** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:54 pm

Caroanbill,

Caroanbill wrote:In truth, a couple of mates wonder what you're probably wondering - why do I ride? The answer is simple - I love it. I love being in the landscape, through and over mountains, across the desert, along by the sea. I even like (some) wild weather. I ride at 7/10ths of MY limits, which equates to a little over legal speed, give or take the odd blat when I feel up to it (an F650CS will - just - do 195km/h, for instance). Over a reasonable distance, I'm as quick as a sportsbike because I'm an experienced rider who doesn't dilly-dally at stops (etc), and over short curvy distances my fast mates simply take an extra espresso while I catch up .. slow as I am, I'm usually the navigator coz I've ridden more places and know the roads, small towns (ie where to find decent coffee) best, and the likely weather ..

I suspect we'd ride fine together. About the same level of riding.. 7MPH over posted speed if I'm feeling sporty, sometimes 10 on the slab (although that's a fools game - since it WILL get you a ticket and it's not much different from the 7MPH which won't.) And sometimes at the speed limit or LESS if the conditions dictate it. I won't let anyone rush me anymore - that is a bad and dangerous thing to do. Never let anyone else dictate your ride. As you do - tell them - "meet you at XYZ" - and 'ya know what - they're never there more than a few minutes waiting.

Someone once had a sig that included "Never ride faster than your guardian angel can keep up.." - and I believe in that. I don't go into corners faster than I can see - have too many friends with bad stories doing that. Corners can hold surprises.

I'm not being paid to ride - I do it strictly because I love it. I'm of a more mature age than I bet a lot of the Roadster owners are, and have the aches and pains to show for experience. In 35 years of riding - no crashes "at speed"... I've been hit from the rear at traffic lights, I've been bumped from the front at gas stations, I've dropped the bike at parking lot speeds - but I try to really avoid doing something bad "at speed" - and that means riding cautiously since with advancing age comes slowing reflexes and poorer eyesight.

That isn't to say I don't ride - 1,800 miles to Asheville and back. And I have people who like to ride with me because they get to see something for a change instead of the world going by in a blur. I've managed 3,400 miles on the Roadster in 6 weeks... not IronButt material - but for our area - acceptable mileage - even if done slowly by some people's opinion.

Hence a bike like the R1200R: more capable than I need, yet not at all daunting, and - most importantly - very able to heighten the experience !
... in just the way bum-up sportsbikes (and now even full-dress tourers)don't, at least for me. My well set-up F650CS is much the same, if a little lighter, bouncier and slower.

So this thread's question - should I worry going to an R1200R from an F650CS - is right up my alley ...
.. and the answer is still - the transition will be fine, assuming you take it easy.

Pretty much from any bike... I went from an R65 to a K100RT to a K75S to a R1150RS and finally to the Roadster - which I really like the best of them all.

Post by **Caroanbill** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:31 pm

I think the most interesting point about F650CS or GS to R1200R is that they are quite similar bikes in many ways, once you account for the obvious frisky-big-single vs boxer ...

They're both comfortable town or all-day bikes (once you sort out the seat, for those who need to) and neither are particularly demanding of the rider. Both (or all three) will give you a great day's ride in the big world (vs the narrow apex-to-apex, pun intended, world of the crouch rocket), and that sense of your soul expanding that a marvelous open-country run on a bike can give (come out and ride the central New South Wales ridges with me sometime .. ).

YET - both will step up to the plate for a quick blast through the twisties (the CS' 160/60 rear makes for some good corners - when I get my eye in) or a high-speed run, and bit are more nimble in the urban world than short-bar, bend-over machines. The CS / GS, with it's quick steering, will get around a tight lane more easily, of course.

Yim4 - your CS loks a lot like my first one (sob) thet sad part about losing a CS / GS is that the motor goes through a transition from lurchy to smooooth (for a single) between 10,000 and 15,000km - mine is now really sweet at 30,000km. I wouldn't want to break in another motor too soon. I guess the 1200 boxer does this too - my 1150 changed character at 7,000km, and was still improving when I sold it.

Post by **vielzebub** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:52 pm

ChiTown wrote:Kinda opposite but... I'm going to buy a F650 soon to take the stress of my off-roads adventure's off my 1200R. I test rode a 98' F650 funduro last wekk, and It was a blast to ride. small, light, totally throwable. Just what I need to get in some crazy spots....
Something like this:

what do you think? the price is right ( no financing).......

Just so we're clear, you're not getting rid of the R, you're just adding a bike to the collection that will take less naps on the dirt roads, right?