So, do "they all do that"?

[queenpdog]

I have had some bizarre experiences with my beloved R over the last several days and wanted to ask some questions of the experts. This bike still has plenty of warranty left, but I hate to lose valuable riding time leaving it with the dealer if this stuff is normal. It has 8k on the odo.

First, I have read many posts on "pinging". I want to know if this is the same as what I have heard called "engine knock" in the past? My guess is that this is the same thing many of you are experiencing. Under heavy load and low RMP's there is a distinct "knocking" or rattling sound. I have experienced this in old, poorly tuned cars, but never an expensive moto. I put in a little sea foam this morning and it seems a little better, but it could just be because the temp dropped a bit today.

Two, I have been noticing that when I brake hard (like when mr. a hole pulled out in front of me this morning) the transmission makes a hard clunk. It is almost like it is downshifting. So far I have not been able to determine if that is actually happening. Is that "normal"?

Lastly, I filled up the tank with 92 octane yesterday. It was hot out and the bike was hot, too. I filled it to the point where the gas was at the top of the narrow spout opening. I pulled out the nozzle and suddenly the gas level began to rise! It rose all the way up to the overfill drains. I was concerned that when I closed the cap it would slosh gas all over the tank. I lightly lowered the cap to see what would happen, and the gas level began to go down again. It was like there was an air bubble of some kind in there. Has that happened to you? What's going on there?

I realize this is all very random, but I would love to hear explanations if anyone has any.
Cheers,
Julia

[toner87]

For 1 & 2 I would say, :"yes that's normal." Heavy load @ low RPM you will get some of that knocking sound... Remedy? Down shift or give gas or both.
I assume your bike has ABS? They do tend to make a clunking noise under hard braking, at least my Rockster does.

#3, no idea what's going on. Never heard of that happening.

Many more qualified opinions to come, for sure.

T.

[MartyWadd]

That's exactly the same experience I have when I fill the tank. When I stop filling, the level does rise, very little, but when I pause, and examine the level, it will slowly recede, sometimes enough to allow 1/4 gallon more. I don't know what this means. I never gave it much thought. This is my first bike, and I thought it was normal. 18,000 miles and no probs. I'd say it's normal.


I wouldn't worry about any of the other stuff. All the transmissions sound/feel like crap, b/c they are.
$.02
-Marty

[Neil]

Julia the r1150r will require 95 octane or beter and keep the revs above 1500 with part throttle untill 2500 and then it should not ping
Neil

[leno]

All engines will complain if you use too wide a throttle at low revs. But some engine systems stop you doing this by making adjustments to cancel the abuse. They will cut the fuel and retared the ignition. But our engine does not seem to be very good at this.

Pinking and Knock are differant. Pinking is pre ingnition, and does make a high pitched pinging noise. It is due to the gas and air mixture burning before it should. It can damage the engine because the heat generated can be higher than the operatinal limits. Knock is worse and is due to the gas and air exploding in the cyclinder because of too much heat and pressure. Gas and air does not normaly explode but burn in a fast and controled way. This can reck an engine very quickly. You will know it when it happends. you will think you have a disel between your legs which iswhat the engine has turned into.

The answer is to be more gentle when acelerating, don't wack open the throttle wide from low revs. Feed the throttle in as the revs rise. Use the gearbox, change down before acelerating, that is the reason you have a gearbox. Electric and Steam engines don't need them

[queenpdog]

Guys,
Thanks for the posts. I should have made mention of a few details. I have been riding for 15 or so years. I have had several bikes, including 3 BMW's. I'm telling you to let you know that I am NOT talking about lugging the engine. I am talking about 3500 RPM's in 5th or 6th gear. I am not whacking open the throttle, I am gently rolling on and when I get to a certain point the knocking kicks in a bit. Everything I am doing should be well within the capabilities of this bike.

Now, I have read some more about cam chain tensioners and I suspect an upgrade might help issues 1 and 2. Any thoughts.

Also, octane is measured differently in the US than other countries. 92 is the highest octane I have been able to find in these parts. The sticker on the gas cap says to use 89 or better. I have always done that.

[NorseMan9]

Also, octane is measured differently in the US than other countries. 92 is the highest octane I have been able to find in these parts. The sticker on the gas cap says to use 89 or better. I have always done that.

I've heard from several BMW riders that riding with the highest octane is the best because of the high compression ratios that the bikes run on. I run on whatever the highest octane I can find. Engine runs like a top.

[ProductUser]

What about water in the tank? Have you tried some products that remove water from fuel? I seemed to have herd this type of post before and the cause was water in the tank.

You can also try some Techron or BGK44 fuel additives. I herd they help remove carbon deposits and clean the injectors. I usually opt for the spirited ride to clear out the carbon

ProductUser

[daslimpet]

Queenpdog,

The clunk when decelerating could be a result of the shaft free-play reversing when you roll of the throttle and the drive train goes from engine pushing to engine braking.

Your 'knocking' symptoms sound strangely familiar. What year is your bike & how many miles are on the odo?

If it is before 2003 it has more than 25k miles you may have an older style left side cam chain tensioner, and it may be wearing out. Symptoms for me included a generally smooth quiet bike when cold but a distinct slappy-rattley sound from a hot engine whenever the rpms's are below 2k. Same slappy-rattley thing when pulling away from a stop. City driving was less than a pleasure with all this strange noise going on.

Last night I swapped my old tensioner out for the updated design (thanks to Chicago BMW for the part, and to this board for instructions) and the change was TRANSFORMATIONAL. Much quieter at all temps / all rpms, smoother idle, smoother acceleration.



The old tensioner consisted of a spring inside of a cylinder that slides into a slightly larger cylinder. There is an oil feed hole in the larger cylinder that allows the assembly to fill with oil thereby applying hydraulic pressure to the cam chain to keep it taught. When the oil pressure drops at low rpms it was up to the spring to make up for the loss of hydraulic pressure. The old tensioner worked fine when new but I suspect that 800 heat cycles in 39k miles of riding took their toll on the temper of the spring steel. New version still has a spring (integrated into the larger cylinder), but the oil inlet & outlet setup is different.

I'll keep the old tensioner around in case the new one wears out one day. A small spring spacer might stiffen it up enough for another few years of service.

[ErikU]

Yes, I belive that is normal, though some experience the symptoms more than others.

My bike pings like yours, though I have replaced the cam chain tensioner. The new tensioner helped hugely with disturbing noises from the top end though.

The only way I can get it not to ping ever is to add octane boost.

[peterbulgar]

Sadly, the rattling you are getting is normal on many bikes, mine included. Some bikes use oil, some ping, and those people whose bikes do neither wonder what all the fuss is about. There are reports on this list that the upgraded cam tensioner may alleviate the situation - more accurate timing control perhaps? The typical situation when my bike pings (rattles) is when I roll on the throttle in sixth gear between 3500 and 4000 rpm, especially if I'm going up a slight hill. I suspect that the fuel injection mapping may be slightly leaner than optimal under those conditions. This doesn't always happen; a gentle roll on is usually silent, as is a vigorous throttle twist - it is inbetween that seems to provoke the pinging. Now that CA has gone off the winter gasoline blend, I find that my bike pings very infrequently, and we have 91 octane max out here. Does Minnesota gasoline have a high alcohol content? That may be contributing to the problem. It probably won't be any consolation to know that the new 1200 engines have knock sensors on each cylinder that virtually eliminate pinging.

Re the clunk: Does your bike have ABS? What you describe sounds like my bike at very low speeds when I apply the front brake and the servo kicks in. Otherwise, probably just driveline slack reversing itself; under normal braking the slack would be taken up in increments, under sudden braking everything would be taken up at once, causing the clunk.

Queenpdog - is your signoff "two wheels good" a general comment or a shout-out to the 1985 album by Prefab Sprout?
Peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[DJ Downunder]

ErikU said

The only way I can get it not to ping ever is to add octane boost.

I think he might be right.. check this out.. http://www.r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=62069#62069 ..just posted on another thread.

I'm expecting some flack on this one..

DJ

[pinecone]

Hi, QPD!

Does Minnesota gasoline have a high alcohol content? That may be contributing to the problem.

Don't know if that's a contributing factor or not, but I buy nonoxygenated premium whenever possible. Here's a list of stations in MN that carry it:
http://www.mnssa.com/nonoxy.html

[queenpdog]

Queenpdog - is your signoff "two wheels good" a general comment or a shout-out to the 1985 album by Prefab Sprout?

Wow Peter! You are the first and only person to ever recognize the prefab connection. I love that album, and am a fan of Steve McQueen. Apparently Prefab had wanted to name the album after McQueen, but were not allowed.

Sorry for the off topic tangent. Yes, bike is ABS. The fact that they are called "knock sensors" on the 1200 motor tells me that pinging and knocking are the same thing.