All other motorcycle related topics go in here." However, DO NOT post ANY messages that are related to politics or religion in here. They will be erased. Thanks!
>>Who the heck said helmets laws prevent accidents<<
Well, now that you asked-----Joan Claybrook, head of NHTSA under Jimmy Carter's Presidency. She suggested seatbelts for motorcycles and pressure sensitive switches on the seat. Claybrook even went on to say that motorcycle rider training was counterproductive!! Joan Claybrook's NHTSA used $500,000 in taxpayer funding to built a *safety motorcycle* that NO ONE could ride.
That's the type of person who lobbies for all rider helmet laws.
BTW, I see you live in New Jersey. Please pass on our thanks to your fellow Garden State riders who spend cash in Pennsylvania each weekend during riding season. Pennsylvania does allow *freedom of choice* to all experienced riders of lawful age.
I want to add some thing here. If a motorcycle accident causes you to go to the doctor or to the hospital, it costs somebody money. It may be an insurance company, or it may not. Hospitals run on money, like any other business. I think we can all agree on that. A hospital, like an insurance company, will raise its rates to cover expenses. Can we agree on that also?
A helmet will, at the very least, reduce the amount of injury of some accidents.
So a helmeted rider who is in an accident has the potential to cost somebody less than a rider who gets in an accident without a helmet. Just as a seatbelted auto driver has the potential to cost somebody less. That somebody is, of course, everybody. If some states and their businesses want to absorb those potential additional costs, fine. But there is no free lunch. That money comes from somewhere.
'02 R1150RA Blk (Sold)
2000 V11 Sport
'90 GS500 w/ wide wheels, inv forks, braced arm
>>Joan Claybrook, head of NHTSA actually said helmet laws prevent accidents<<
Yep, St. Joan didn't like motorcycles! You must remember Joan Claybrook also admitting to twisting some motor vehicle crash data concerning air bags. Joan said NHTSA's credibility was damaged as a result. DUH!!
>>So you (and I) believe that rider training prevents (motorcycle related) accidents<<
There are many factors in preventing an accident, with, I believe formal training as the key. Simply slapping a helmet on an untrained individual is only inviting disaster, but thats what many state helmet laws end up doing.
So how do you get state government interested in a free or low cost rider training course for motorcyclists?
Well, here's how we did it......in late spring 1983, about 50 bikers gathered in Harrisburg to protest the Pennsylvania motorcycle helmet law. An annual event--I was there! Many of the politicians in that chamber laughed at us, even telling us:"we know what's good for you". One Harley guy mentioned rider training for motorcyclists. One politician asked who would pay for the program-----every one in the crowd to a man said we will pay for it. A show of hands for approval and Pennsylvania's self-funded rider training program was born. A few months later ABATE of Pennsylvania was formed.
Does rider training work? According to the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation some 25,000 students completed the free rider training course in 2004, up from 23,000 the previous year. State motorcycle registrations are now approaching 300,000. Biker tourism through the Keystone state is high, and with the ammended helmet law for adult riders, Pennsylvania's motorcycle fatality rate has not sharply increased.
Ride safe all........ I'm going for a ride! (Now, where's my helmet)
How does the state pay for free training? Is your choice funded by every PA tax payer or just by PA motorcyclists? Guest05,
You are paying an additional fee for that choice. And of course fatalities would be up, on increased ridership alone. That is also a potential cost each individual who rides in PA must bear.
If you want me to thank my fellow untrained, unhelmeted NJ riders for riding in PA on your nickel.....well nah, I am sure we spend enough money over there on 'do rags and beer to offset it!
The type of risk taker who will ride without a helmet, is most likely, not the type of rider who will go to the trouble of taking that 'free' course. If they wont wear a helmet by choice, are they honestly going to go take riding lessons by choice?
And again, my name is Steve. How can you be such a champion of this 'cause' without giving your name? Even your first name?
'02 R1150RA Blk (Sold)
2000 V11 Sport
'90 GS500 w/ wide wheels, inv forks, braced arm
>>How does the state pay for (motorcycle) free training<<
The state (Pennsylvania Motor Vehicles Department) collects and monitor's the funds collected from bikers and........
Wait a minute! it's all on the Internet Stevie. Just click on PennDot site.
You're too hung on that 40 year old *social Burden* crap for me to waste more time on you.
So far nobody has been able to fully explain to me who the real *social Burdens* are in this country and who pays for their medical care and with which funding.
So far nobody has been able to fully explain to me who the real *social Burdens* are in this country and who pays for their medical care and with which funding.
I am one of the guys called in to fix up folks who crash, mess up their face, but survive.
I show up in the ER and just do what can be done.
If they don't survive, I don't get called, so I DO see a biased sample.
So, you might say it is less expensive to forego the helmet law, because a LOT of the folks who hit their head with no helmet would just die, period. The billing goes to the morgue, not the ER or the docs.
Once I got called in at 4 a. m. As I arrived, the damaged but alive patient who was well "lubricated" with alcohol and other substances was screaming " Where is that worthless piece of $hit surgeon you called to fix me?!?" I replied "Uh, that would be me. " He said "look you MotherF&&KER, you fix me NOW or I am going to sue your A$$ beyond belief." Without blinking, the nurse standing there winked at me and said to me "I bet you wish he wasn't wearing a helmet right about now, huh?"
I worked on him for hours and hours because that is just what surgeons do.
When seen for follow up , NOT drunk and drugged out, he was actually a pretty nice guy. He was grateful. I did relate to him the story about what he said to me in the ER. He couldn't believe it and you would not have believed it if you had met him then./
SO what is the answer on the helmet laws?
Tough to say, huh?
Of course if he had been wearing a full face helmet, I wouldn't have to been called at all.
First of all folks, please NO LINKS to the NHTSA or the Advocates for Highway & Auto Safety. (Motorcycle hater Joan Claybrook works for Advocates) I've read her crap before! Never mentions rider training.
<<Bones>>I am one of the guys called in to fix up folks who crash, mess up their face, but survive. I show up in the ER and just do what can be done. If they don't survive, I don't get called, so I DO see a biased sample<<
Yes Bones, you have a thankless job, piecing together the teens and their drunken buddies who smacked a car into a tree, or saving victims of drug/alcohol overdose, or diabetic shock, or victims of gunshots and/or domestic violence. And on occasion you'll have to treat a motorcyclist. BTW, isn't it true head injury is the leading cause of death in automobile crash? Hmmm, helmets for motorists, what an neat idea.
Seriously tho, working in a Trauma Center is a tough job and the burn out rate among E.R. personel is high. You have my respect.
So, onto another subject.....who or what is this *social Burden* theory that's giving pro-helmet law people fits? Let's give a look.............
Would it be the hundreds of thousands of Incarcerated people in federal, state, county and municipal prisons and jails who receive by law prompt medical care at taxpayer expense? Medicare.
OR the hundreds of thousands of Public Assistance (Welfare) families who will receive prompt medical care at taxpayer expense? Social Security/Medicare.
How about the thousands of Illegal immigrants from *south of the border* who visit out southwest area hospitals for prompt medical care, which they will receive. Pregnant immigrants are not denied free prenatal care. Their babies delivered in the U.S. become American citizens. Mr/Ms Taxpayer foots the bills. Medicare.
Those tens of thousands of Drug and Alcohol abusers without insurance will receive free treatment or counseling, paid for with taxpayer funds.
Those families of brain deficient ghetto children who ate lead base paint chips in tenament buildings. They will receive S.S.I. monthly income; so will their lawyer's....courtesy of Mr/Ms taxpayer thru Social Security.
When you turn 65 years of age, you will enter the Medicare program which pays about 80% of your medical expenses. Take a guess who pays for Medicare?
With very few exceptions....EVERYBODY pays into the Medicare and Social Security fund. Check your pay stub!
With some exception most of the above examples are NON-PRODUCTIVE individuals. They will receive more than what they pay out to society.
Ticks you off, eh?? So many people on the dole!
Now the other side of our debate...........
Our hard working motorcyclist decides to purchase a new bike. (Disposable income purchase) 0% motorcycle dealer incentives don't exist. He knows he needs a job and damn good credit to get low financing rates and in most states he'll need Insurance to get the bike registered. In whatever state he resides in full coverage insurance with under/uninsured added is mandatory with all lending institutions as lien holders. Since he has a job he's already covered with medical insurance. He works, he's insured and he might choose to ride without a helmet, under legal conditions of course.
Do you think he just might have earned that choice??