Need help please......

[jonothan]

They are good points, Renegade. Looking in previous threads, this seems to me to be an old argument, perpetuated by the attitudes of some people, not least by that of H-D riders themselves.

Resale is an important consideration. The new Moto Guzzis are fabulous machines, the Breva 1000 is gorgeous, well made too, and the Italians have now sorted the electrics properly - and not before time.

Two reasons I never bought one. No local dealer. Poor resale value. The BMW on the other hand could be bought and serviced locally and don't appear to depreciate quite as fast as in the US. Harleys hardly depreciate at all over here either, or so it seems.

My one additional comment is this. Were any one here to post a similar thread on an H-D forum, would we have fared better or worse, do you think?

Just a thought!

J

[dallara]

Renegade said:

Thanks for your replies......the passive/aggressive tone still turns me off and I don't think this forum is for me......

That choice, like your choice of mount, is obviously up to you... But it tends to prove my point about "political correctness" and "reverse discrimination" of many who ride Harley's...

Don't believe me?

Well, how about these gems...

BMW is and always will be in the minority compared to Harley Davidson.

this notion that riding a BMW puts you in a class of safety minded riding

Seems you carry around one or two prejudicial sterotypes yourself... And I can't recall anyone in this thread saying anything about how riding a "BMW puts you in a class of safety minded riding". I, for one, ride mine as hard as I can, and another newsflash - Life is inherently dangerous, period.

On the subject of Harley's being overpriced... If your only criteria for worth is resale value then a Harley is most definitely for you. However, if you value good performance, great handling, terrific brakes, etc. more than cash, then there are any number of better choices in motorcycling than an H-D.

Hell, I have owned big six-figure race cars that had terrible resale value every time there was a series rule change, but nothing will ever convince me that they were not a bargain when it came to pure enjoyment.

BTW, I don't know where you got your sales figures, but if you are correct then, by God, Harley-Davidson is selling 1 out of every 3 motorcycles, dirt or street, sold in the entire USA!

Actually, though, according to "Motorcycle Dealer News" your numbers for Harley are inflated by about 18%...

Here's how the numbers break down for 2004:

Honda - 257,681
Harley-Davidson - 247, 457
Yamaha - 158,757
Suzuki - 113,655
Kawasaki - 90, 865
KTM - 18,622
BMW - 14,047 (ya' had them inflated only 6%... )
Triumph - 6,191
Buell - 5,730 (you can add these to H-D's numbers if you like...)
Ducati - 5,218
Victory - 3,489
Aprilia - 1,851
MZ - 223

Total - 923,785 new *STREET* bikes in 2004

Note it doesn't even include dirt bikes, which break down like this:

Honda - 138,016
Yamaha - 82,269
Kawasaki - 32,212
Suzuki - 31,050
KTM - 17,629

Total - 301,270

And if you add this to the figure above you get 1,225,055 motorcycles sold in the USA... and perhaps we should note that this does not include scooters or ATV's.

Now, if part of your criteria is to be part of a *LARGER* group of motorcyclists, then maybe you should be on a Honda, though being on a Harley certainly lumps you in with plenty of folks... Me, that has never been part of how I value either my motorcycle itself, or my motorcycling experience. Lots of people own Chevies, too, but you don't see them declaring it as a "lifestyle" nor getting all super-sensitive when Ford drivers make jokes about 'em...

Personally, I have owned Honda's, Yamaha's, Kawasaki's, Suzuki's, Triumph's, Ducati's, Bultaco's, ATK's, KTM's, Can-Am's, Husqvarna's, CZ's, a couple of BMW's... and probably one or two I am leaving out...

I did not measure the value of any of them by their resale value or by how many other people owned them... Either criteria is ludicrous when you are talking about a vehicle used solely for enjoyment.

However, you pays your money and you takes your choice... Sad that to go along with the Harley-Davidson mystique we can now add hyper-sensitivity to the myriad of other barbs one can toss at the brand and some of its riders...

Have fun, Renegade. Maybe you can find a Harley forum where they won't bash you incessantly because you have a BMW.

Cheers!

Dallara

[sjbmw]

Dallara, you rock.

btw, the resale dividend goes out the window after 20,000 miles. That is why trailering is so popular.

I find it odd that the biggest "value" to be had happens when the Harley is gone. But most Harleys sold in the past 5 years have no where near that many miles My friends have 01, and 03 HD's, and I got my bike 1 to 3 years after they did, and I have more miles still! And I busted myself up in a crash and lost half a summer of riding.

I ride my bike to GET AWAY from the crowd. HD owners are desperate for one.

[renegade]

Jonathan, HD owners generally don't have time to hang out on a forum like this because they spent so much on the bike that they don't have any left over for a computer...and if the did have a computer, they still wouldn't have the time because they are to busy shining their chrome.......

one last bit and then I gotta go.....I worked for a guy who rode an RS and was so opinionated about ABS, BMW, etc that he didn't care for anything else. When I told him I sold the RT and bought a Harley dresser (aka Milwaukee paint mixer), he looked at me as if I had a defect..he was perplexed...I then had him read my t-shirt I was wearing by chance at the time...it read, "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand"

I wouldn't buy a Harley airplane any sooner than I'd buy stock in BMW (if you could)......

We all take on personas when we are insulated from reality, as in this forum, as when we take to the streets...on a bike, in a cage, on a bicycle....the goal as I see it is to behave in an authentic manner and treat others as we would have them treat us...respectfully....prejudice and judgement are not generally the way we like to be treated.....the next time you go out there, ask yourself if you ride, drive...in a manner that is truly authentic....and pause if you find yourself endulging in self righteous judgement......don't let the minority of any class be representative of the majority....

Peace be with you all.......

[bad n ruin]

I don't know where you're pickin' up the passive/aggressive tone - I sure didn't feel it (but I confess I didn't read all the posts)

Perhaps you're a little sensitive to it - and maybe rightfully so. Or perhaps you have an agenda that wasn't made clear with your first post.

None the less, I'll take issue with your claim that choice of machinery doesn't effect anti-social type behavior. I work with some fellas that jumped in the Harley buying frenzy of, say, the last decade. Not all, but most of these guys are midlife crisis management or yuppie types.

What I've observed is behavoir taking an almost comical turn to badass rebel type soon after the Harley purchase. You know, a few rallies, a few trips to the Harley jewelry store and it kinda rubs off - it better or prepare to be ostracized at the next gathering.

I couldn't care less about sales volume about the bikes. My criteria is my criteria - not influenced by popular choice or re-sale performance.

I'll ride with anyone unless it's demonstrated my style of riding is far different than person or group I'm riding with. I'm a small L libertarian and don't pass judgement on anyone's choice of bike or level of ATGATT.

You're right about dicks riding every type of bike, but I'll make this sweeping generalization: Crotch rocket squids and wanna-be badass Harley 'rebels' are 2 types I wont ride with.

Anyway.......... enjoy the Ride.

[yjleesvrr]

p.s. - I often wear my Suzuki riding jacket that I originally purchased with my SV650 on my Harley. Imagine the wierd stares I get from other riders when they realize the bike I'm on after seeing me approach in an almost racer-themed fabric jacket

[geechie]

Um... Mr. Gade,

This is the best motorcycle forum anywhere — period. If you really want to be a member, then all you gotta do... is act like it.

But I have to wonder... with a handle like "Renegade", do you really wamt to belong... anywhere?

I think not.

Anyway... you use too many ellipses.

George

[dallara]

While looking in this thread again I realized I had missed a couple of interesting things...

For instance, this beauty from Renegade:

my 2004 RR is only 4 months old and has lost about 1/3 of it's value

Hmmmmm... Riddle me this Renegade?

How is a 2004 model motorcycle only 4 months old when it is now October of 2005?

Must be some more Harley math... Like selling over 300,000 units, eh?

But another Renegade Roller hits me as *REALLY* funny...

That being said, there are certain percentages of our population that are anti social in their behaviour (ie don't interact well with others)....Those percentages are not effected by the machinery that they choose to operate. That is what is called myth......and perhaps perception....but not reality....

So, you are really going to try and tell me that all those guys who ride Harley's for the "Bad Boy" image, and costume themselves all up in the black chaps, torn jeans, weird little leather vests with all sorts of patches on 'em (that Harley types like to call "Colors"... ), fingerless gloves, and little goofy "Doo Rags" would still dress and act that way no matter *WHAT* kind of bike they rode???

I've got a *BIG* picture of some 350 lbs. guy, all festooned with tattoos and appearing like he hadn't bathed in month, all decked out in all the requisite Harley "Lifestyle" gear... riding to Sturgis on a *VESPA*!!!

I think it would be quite safe to say that a vast majority of Harley riders are *GREATLY* "effected" by the machinery they ride, and that what they ride most definitely influences their behavior. That's no "myth"... That is *REALITY*. You need go no further than any local Harley rally to see that, and if you want to see a glaring example of it, check out Sturgis...

But the gem of gems from our sensitive, new-age Renegade was this missive...

there is no way to make them safe......just ask your mother......

I don't know about you, Renegade, but my Mother has never liked motorcycles (other than she thought getting interested in them kept me out of a lot of trouble when I was a kid...), but then I've never brought her into my decision-making process of deciding on my recreational activities or my choice of motorcycle brand. I love her, and I respect her, but she hasn't expected me to seek her counsel on my life for about three and a half decades...

Maybe it's different in your household...

So, did Mom tell ya' to buy the Harley, or the BMW???

Cheers!

Dallara

[Guest]

dallara,

if you are not already, you should consider politics....you are a spin doctor to be sure........if you want to be a politician, you will have to be as good on your feet as you are behind a computer keyboard...and get a whole lot better at it...you are too transparent.....I'm sure the almost 800 posts in 6 months has helped your wit..heck......I don't spend that much time cleaning two Harleys.......anyway, it is a relief that the none of BMW riders that I have encountered resemble this board at all.....in fact they have never heard of it.......Cary's page back in the day was a different story...but that was then....and this is now......

[yjleesvrr]

Dallara - you're a little too much sometimes. Melodrama, that is.

[dallara]

Aw, come on, "Guest"...

You can do a lot better than that!

I've only got these 780 odd posts here on the *NEW* board... I had some more on the *OLD* ezboard, too!

Politics???

Nope. Not a chance. Too many politicians ride friggin' Harley's!!!

Spin??? If you say so... But the only "spinning" I had seen up until your limaceous bavardage was Renegade trying to convince us that Harley sold more bikes than it does, that the resale value of a bike somehow increased one's enjoyment of it, that you were somehow far more "cool" if you followed the herd and bought the same brand bike a whole bunch of other lemmings did, that owning a Harley in no way effected how any riders acted or dressed, that he was somehow more open-minded than the rest of us, that he was most certainly offended that *ANYONE* would have an opinion different from his own about Harley's, that he consults his mother on an obviously wide variety of subjects, and that he is pretty darn thin-skinned and sensitive when it comes to his chosen brand of ride... Yet carries around some pretty goofy stereotypes of his own.

You seem to share in most of those areas with him, so a simple question might be:

What are you doing here if this current forum doesn't measure up to your "Cary" (doesn't that rhyme with Kerry? ) standards?

Perhaps one day you will actually get to ride them thar' Harley's intead of cleanin' 'em... Or do you prefer to trailer 'em up to the bar?

This poor ol' board only has 962 paid members, but it has plenty of "Guests"... Funny how some of 'em feel the need to disparage something they aren't even paying for. But there is a simple, non-political way you can treat your symtoms of displeasure with this board... Don't read it.

Maybe you could ask Renegade's mom about that...

Of course, then you wouldn't have anyplace else to go, would ya'?

Harley forums are probably pretty boring what with all the Jap bike bashing, Italian bike bashing, German bike bashing, British bike bashing, etc.... Along with the endless posts about the latest and greatest "Doo Rags" and the "How To" articles on trailering to Sturgis...

What a shame H-D posers are such easy targets, and such thin-skinned ones, too. Talk about transparent...

Cheers!

Dallara

[sshallen]

Harley Davidson sold over 300,000 units last year...can anyone tell me how many BMWs were sold??????? 15,000 in the US and how many of those were police bikes???..my point is simple....BMW is and always will be in the minority compared to Harley Davidson.

The "McDonald's is America's Finest Eating establishment" argument.

[yjleesvrr]

Hey now. Mickadees has pretty decent salad... And who can argue with the soft-serve ice cream for a buck???

[dallara]

Yjleesvrr said:

Dallara - you're a little too much sometimes. Melodrama, that is.

Melodrama? You want melodrama?

Look no further than these:

Live to ride, ride to live!

(Isn't that an old Harley ad slogan... But the original poster here uses it for a sig line)

the passive/aggressive tone still turns me off and I don't think this forum is for me......

Harley Davidson sold over 300,000 units last year...can anyone tell me how many BMWs were sold???????

this notion that riding a BMW puts you in a class of safety minded riding.....puleeze....motorcycles are inherently unsafe....there is no way to make them safe......just ask your mother......

my 2004 RR is only 4 months old and has lost about 1/3 of it's value.....and going down.....

Yong, that stuff is some truly high-grade, high-octane melodrama!

But to each his own...

Cheers!

Dallara

[Guest]

dallara,

you need to get a life..........renegade's posts sure pulled out the blow hards such as yourself......i just started reading this post, but i have to say, the way you treat new members who inquire about your attitudes says it all........don't feel alone dallara, there are many others who fall into the same category as you......they need to get a life too.....
your spin is a window into your twisted way of thinking.......ciao!

[sshallen]

Hey now. Mickadees has pretty decent salad... And who can argue with the soft-serve ice cream for a buck???

$.69 on sale. I'm going to get a shirt that says "McDonald's... If you have ask, you wouldn't understand".

By the way, you know I love 'em all (Bikes, that is).

[yjleesvrr]

Hey Sam, did you ever get that RT? Are you still two-wheelin' it on the R1150R?

Dallara - I agree that Renegade is being overly sensitive, but you're certainly flaming things up a bit. I respect you for the knowledge you expound and the experience you evidently have. In my opinion, a man in your position should bestow upon others magnanimity, not spite given the richness of your experience.

[dallara]

I just *LOVE* this board

Sshallen, this was absolutely *PRICELESS*!!!

I'm going to get a shirt that says "McDonald's... If you have ask, you wouldn't understand".

If you ever get 'em made I'll be a willing buyer for 3 to 5 of 'em! They'll go great with my "If Harley-Davidson made an airplane, would you fly on one?" collection...

Yong, McDonald's has pretty decent salads? I do hope you're not really serious... And I hate to break it to ya', but that stuff they are selling as "soft-serve" ain't ice cream!

And for our beloved "Guest"...

Gee, now I have my own puppy... Following me around yapping in poor ol' Renegade's defense. How quaint...

I didn't realize you were a new "member"...

Cheers!

Dallara

[yjleesvrr]

Dallara - you of all people should recognize sarcasm when you read it...

I usually eat in New York City and New Jersey restaurants, not to mention the ones around D.C.

[dallara]

I thought so, Yong...

I never imagined you as the Mickey D's type!

One even has to wonder how McDonald's can get away with calling their "establishments" restaurants...

Ahhhhhh, yes... The restaurants of New York City... Some of the best in the world. Haven't been there in over a decade, but one thing I liked about NYC was fine dining.

Cheers!

Dallara