R1200RT vs. FJR1300

[bikerdudeQC]

There's been a lot of discussion on the relative merits between these two bikes. I'm curious if I'm the only one that doesn't think these are even really in the same category (marketing efforts aside). The new RT seems to me more like a mini goldwing than a true sport tourer. Is it really in the same categorie as the FJR?

Bit of the same issue with the ST, which to me is much more to the sport end of the sport touring spectrum.

To me BMW isn't competing with the FJR head to head but has chosen a sort of flank attack approach. I haven't riden any of these bikes, would love the input of those who have.

Cheers,

Justin

[dallara]

Hey, BikerdudeQC...

I dunno'... It is hard to say that the R-1200-RT and the FJR-1300 are not in the same market segment.

They are both marketed by their respective manufacturers in much the same way - as sort of a "GT" motorcycle, or "Gentlemen's Express".

BMW takes its swipes at the Honda Gold Wing, Harley Ultra Glides, and the like with their K-1200-LT, with a standard trunk, big seats, bigger fairings, all sorts of sound gear, etc.

The BMW K-1200-S is obviously aimed squarely at the Suzuki Hayabusa, Kawasaki ZX-12, etc., and was even pegged by BMW at its introduction at going after that market.

The R-1200-ST appears more aimed at the Honda VFR-800 and those kinds of sleds.

The soon to be released R-1200-S is defintely targeted at the Ducati 999, Aprilia Mille, Honda RC-51, "Supersport Twin" category, IMHO.

Whereas the BMW R-1200-RT, with its standard removable bags, electrically adjustable windshield, more sporting chassis than the K-1200-LT (and based on the R-1200-ST), 110 HP power output, etc. seems squared off rightly enough with the Yamaha FJR-1300 with its standard removable bags, electrically adjustable windshield, sporting chassis, 145 HP power output, etc. and very similar riding position and ergonomics.

The Honda ST-1300 is slotted right in the middle of that market niche, too.

Just my two cents... YMMV.

Cheers!

Dallara

[yjleesvrr]

I would say the K1200GT is the direct competitor to the FJR1300. I hope BMW updates the KGT, because with the new motor it should be one wicked sport tourer!

[dallara]

Good point, yjleesvrr...

And if you were talking about 2005, I would have agreed with you, but...

It is obvious that the K-1200-S took the place of the K1200-RS, and the day of the "Flying Bricks" has passed. From the sales figures I once saw for BMW's in the USA the K-1200-GT was not a great seller for BMW, and sold in nowhere near the numbers the K-1200-RS did, so I wonder if BMW will actually produce a replacement...

I hope so, as a K-1200-S-based K-1200-SGT, with a bit bigger fairing and adjustable windscreen, standard bags, a bit more upright riding position, larger fuel capacity, etc. could really shake the FJR-1300 up, simply because it should have more power, but...

Therein lies the rub, again...

If BMW does it it will most likely cost damn near $20,000.00 !!!

And the Yamaha will still be down under $14,000.00... $5,000 or $6,000 bucks will buy a lot of gas, oil, filters, tires, accessories, etc.

It all just keeps coming 'round to that.

Just my two wampum...

Cheers!

Dallara

[yjleesvrr]

Dallara - if BMW replaces the current GT and it costs 20 grand, I'd opt for the FJR as well.

[bakernks]

I feel at this time, with the issues my last 3 BMW's have had, and they haven't been major, that the reliability factor, BMW vs. Japan, is a wash.

If BMW wants to sell me a K1200GT, should they build it, they will have to be within $1k of the Yamaha FJR1300. It's brass tacks to brass tacks time, folks. I love both my BMW's and hope to enjoy them both for many miles into the future. No one makes anything in both bikes' class that edges what I own- no one. But the 1 liter+ sport tourer, there's real competition today. The '06 FJR wins out on the R1200RT merely on price, at this point. YMMV.

[yjleesvrr]

BMW's have historically been more durable bikes. Not necessarily more reliable, but longer lasting.

The old "flying brick" and the boxer are known for lasting at least 200k miles with proper care. I don't know if the same applies to the latest generation of engines, but I hope it does.

The over-engineered nature of Beemers to me justified the higher cost.

[wncbmw]

Maybe irrelevent but at a rest area today, I saw an airhead BMW passing though NC from Conn. and it had to be at least 30 years old and running good. That is why I am on a BMW. Maybe it is a fading myth but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I did see one of Yong's buddies on a 20 year old Yamaha last month though!

[bakernks]

The reliability reputation was established solely on the back of the air-cooled engines. Those engines did last remarkably long times. Reason being: lower stressed engines. Plain and simple, your entire driveline is going to last just fine if your bike makes 67 hp out of 1,000 cc. Now, bump the thing up a couple thousand rpm's and make 90 hp, and poof:

Final drive failures
Clutch splines stripped out
Clutches fried

Which are the usual problems the Oilhead family sees. The Hexhead family isn't immune either.

BMW's are great bikes, I firmly believe that and back up my talk with cash, and have purchased 3 new ones in 3 years. But they have no magical properties, they're cast out of aluminum, and ground out of steel just like a Yamaha. The **execution of the design** is now much more important than ever before. Used to be Germans assembled them. Now, increasingly, Turkish immigrants assemble them. With no ethnic standard being applied here, the designs are different, the workforce is different, it all adds up. Fewer changes in the Japanese workforce, thus less "learning curve of manufacturing complicated vehicles", much bigger companies as a whole in Japan, thus more spent in R&D.

Reliability BMW VS Japan is a wash.

[Variance]

Reliability BMW vs Japan is a wash but durability still isn't.

I don't doubt that the FJR would provide a couple years (10-20k) of trouble free riding, but after that I've got doubts. And there is where the value of BMW pulls ahead. IMHO.

Maybe the jap bikes do last longer these days, but I'm not aware of it.

[yjleesvrr]

Jay - I agree on all points, including the one about Ashley...

[boxermania]

Being a major car and motorcycle enthusiast I see yet another outcome. BMW motorcycles are going the way that Porsche went with their 911 model. It went from a car that was just upwards of the average reach to something that although still making an excellent profit it does so with a far lesser number of buyers every year. Call it the price of exclusivity.

The boxers will never compete with the Japanese multi's or the Briotish offerings and the new K might, in the future, be a better package than the Busa, et al but very few will be able to afford it. Heck, some of the old faithfull that have bought into the new K's are already experiencing cost of ownership, yes, for the most part they are keeping mum, but very few owners like to replace rear tires at 3K miles or less.........

My point is, that those that have catered to the BMW brand will no longer do so because the cost of exclusivity will be out of reach to the majority of the average buyer. For far less outlay, say 6K or more, they can choose form a slew of bikes, mostly from the far East, both modern in design and technology. Yes gents.....it is the begining of the end for 60% of those that presently ride the BMW brand, me included.

Truly, don't you see what is evolving right in front of your nose?, well in any case, remember that you heard it from me first.

[BobFV1]

I hope so, as a K-1200-S-based K-1200-SGT, with a bit bigger fairing and adjustable windscreen, standard bags, a bit more upright riding position, larger fuel capacity, etc. could really shake the FJR-1300 up, simply because it should have more power,

And if BMW pulls it off, I won;t care how much it costs....

[JCsman]

I love my R1150R. But, I can only "afford" one good bike (OK, if I had to I could "afford" more, but I have this silly plan that my kids will go to college and I'll continue to live indoors).

With that stipulation I can not think of a bike I'd trade her for.

But if for the price of my one bike I could get two..... different story.

For example, if I were in the market could I really pop for the R1200RT when I could get the FJR and a KLR 650? Methinks not.

[dallara]

JCsman said:

For example, if I were in the market could I really pop for the R1200RT when I could get the FJR and a KLR 650? Methinks not.

Priceless, JCsman! (no pun intended... well, maybe just a little bit... )

Therein lies the big rub. Assuming similar disposable income levels, could one really justify the extra $$$$$$$ a BMW R-1200-RT would cost over the possiblity of having *TWO* fine machines to use in two different arenas for the same price?

And even one were not to get two bikes, which way would the money be better spent for one's enjoyment... On the whatever extra "panache" or "ego boost" simply owning a Roundel-badged machine, or on gasoline, oil, tires, etc. to fund more riding?

Certainly it is a very personal choice, and I have nothing but respect for those who choose to spend the additional funds if that is what gives them pleasure and pride, but...

For me (and I can afford any of them... No brag, just simple fact), I can no longer justify the "Roundel Tariff". I love my BMW, but I don't love the brand or the company enough to pay them 35% to 40% more than other comparable, capable, reliable, attractive, good performing, etc. machines from other fine manufacturers.

Just my own personal opinion... Nothing more.

Cheers!

Dallara

[Martyn]

Maybe irrelevent but at a rest area today, I saw an airhead BMW passing though NC from Conn. and it had to be at least 30 years old and running good. That is why I am on a BMW. Maybe it is a fading myth but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Whilst sat waiting for the recovery for my R1150RT (22,000 miles & the clutch/input shaft splines stripped) I was wistfully thinking of my 1979 RT & wishing I had taken it that day !!!

[FGanger]

Just to get in my two cents:

Most of the reliability I've seen from modern bikes is about the same. Yes, there are a couple of notable exceptions.

What I have noticed is the difference in factory finishes holding up. I was in a BMW dealership where they had a number of older, well cared for, low mileage machines on display. There was a difference between the 400cc “F” Honda four and the 20-year-old BMW. The finish on the engine cases of the Honda, for example, were yellowish with what looked like a lacquer finish (perhaps put on by the factory to keep the polished cases looking good) pealing off in spots. The finish on the BMW was just about what I recall from my older machines. Perhaps if one can keep ones machine looking “factory new” they are more likely to continue to do the routine maintenance on them - hence they last longer. So I guess I'm saying that if all things are equal, a reliable Japanese machine will last mechanically as long as a reliable German machine. I'm also saying that the BMW, all things being equal, will look better years from now. I think that's what I'm saying.

In my case, the three machines, which had the worst record of reliability, were BMW's. To date I've owned over 30 different bikes, most of them bought new, all had lots of miles on them when I sold them.

The absolute worst one was my K12RS. While almost all of the repair work was done under warranty, the amount of it was horrendous. Even the vaulted R1150R had over $1,500 worth of repair. This was for a new clutch and drive train (gaskets and bearings) problems. The other was my R69US - valve and transmission issues from the get-go. Of course I still was able to put on the miles with all three. K12 - 60,000, R1150R - 50,000 and still going, R69US - 60,000.

The K12 and R69US were 1st year models, but so was my Honda Gold Wing. I put over 80,000 miles on it only replacing the shocks and the steering head bearings. I'm not including worn suspension replacements when referring to my BMW's.

Will I buy another BMW? Yes, I imagine so. Certainly NEVER a first year model again, or a model where some major changes were made. If I was taking off for a trip around the world, no. I'd take a Honda thank you.

So there you go, it's always something,

Frank

Excellent thread BTW

[Britnheaven]

Guys,

About the merits of spending more on a Beemer...

I just completed a 5,600 mile trip on my (old style) 1150 GS adventure from CA - AR and back.

About 400 miles of that of that were off road, and some of those miles were ridden at over 11,000 feet.

My GS did it all with ease. No drama, no discomfort (and that included a 900 (s)mile day) - and despite 2 ton of mud and crap that had piled up on it, it truly looked as good as new when I cleaned the old gal off. It also used less than a cup of synthetic oil on the whole trip.

I rode with 2 other guys, one on a KLR and the other on a GS adventure. The KLR (new) had issues every single day - chain, thermostat. carburation (elevation) and others.

Nothing comes close to a Beemer IMHO. You payz yer money and yer takes yer choice!