Bye bye clutch splines :(

[aerokurt]

So, does that mean that it either is undersized in design and or has no provision for it's own lube, as in sealed bearing?

[vwdoctor]

It is a very small bearing so possibly undersized. I am assuming that it was not easy to design clutch slave cylinder and (more or less ) throwout bearing in such a small package, so some compromises were made (as usual).

[kirby]

The photos that mcampy posted of the input shaft damage/ware was most likely caused by a misalignment of the input shaft and the clutch hub.

This might be from the hub itself not being square with the plate or the transmission case and the mating surface of the engine were not square.

The rear drive failures can often be the incorrect preload of the ring and pinion. This has to be very close with the proper contact of gear teeth or the asyametrical loading will cause the bearing(s) to fail in a few thousand miles depanding on how hard the use.

These are manufacturing defects.

At 110K miles my input shaft looked almost new and this machine has done everything from club racing to regular track days and many 14 hour days on the road at high speed.

Rationalizing these problems can lead to allot of wasted effort. I must have bought a good one as mine now has 169K and have had no failures of the rear drive or transmission input/Clutch hub splines.

A mystery?....No I don't think so.

m :-)

[rocky2ie]

Hi, sorry to hear about your spline failure. I think at this stage most r1150 owners have spline failure paranoia. Can any one tell me if there were slivers of metal or other metal filings to be seen behind the starter before their splines stripped. I can't believe that there can be that much wear without some signs. I check mine behind the starter every service and there are no signs of any metal filings.
Cheers.

[aerokurt]

Hi Kirby,
Can you give me a call, please.
Sent you a pm yesterday with my phone numbers.
I will be up at Mojave Saturday morning to see Gene.
Any chance you can be there?

Cheers, Kurt

[kirby]

Hi Kirby,
Can you give me a call, please.
Sent you a pm yesterday with my phone numbers.
I will be up at Mojave Saturday morning to see Gene.
Any chance you can be there?

Cheers, Kurt

Sorry, I just saw your PM and returned one!

:-)

[peels]

Hi, sorry to hear about your spline failure. I think at this stage most r1150 owners have spline failure paranoia. Can any one tell me if there were slivers of metal or other metal filings to be seen behind the starter before their splines stripped. I can't believe that there can be that much wear without some signs. I check mine behind the starter every service and there are no signs of any metal filings.
Cheers.

yes, yes we do.

I wanted an 1150 R SO bad when they came out, but decided against it, new baby on the way...new house ETC. Daydreaming last year, I found a close one, great price, so I snapped it up. Got home and started researching... my heart sank a little.

So I just take it easy on the bike. Iv'e only got 16,500 on it..no crazy shifting, or especially lugging the motor in a tall gear. 6th doesn't get used til 80+

Not to hijack a thread here, but I'm wondering, besides these normal things and spline lube, is there a "best practices" procedure list out there?
Much like the procedures I get from the many print companies I deal with, that are intended to help you meet their machines' unrealistic rated speed (LOL)

Or is this just a wait and watch closely, because its inevitable, then, you MUST modify the clutch hub when you spot the issue?

[rocky2ie]

This topic has been flogged to death on bmw forums and there are different reasons given for spline wear, my bike has only 15500
miles on it and when I get time I will be modifying my clutch with a 5mm spacer, there is definately room for improvment there.
Hopefully this thread will keep going and we will get feedback from people who have tried the spacer.

[mcampy]

Update:

Two Sundays ago, I finally found time to re-assemble my bike. Actually, I've just been waiting for some cool weather (my garage gets baking hot in the summer). The whole dis-assembly/re-assembly experience is not so bad which is nice because I plan to keep the bike.

As for the extent of the rehab, I decided to live on the edge (cheap/easy) and installed the new clutch+adapter on the existing input shaft.

I've put about 250 miles on it since the new clutch install and everything seems to be going smoothly. I'm heading down to Barber for the Vintage Festival and I'm planning to ride it (~900 miles total).

I'll continue riding it through the end of the year and open it back up for a look-see this winter. I'll likely send the gearbox out for a new shaft, seals, etc. at that time.

Here is a photo of the clutch plate with adapter installed:

[vwdoctor]

Thanks for the update. Nice job on the rivets. I am glad everything worked out for you.

[peels]

Good stuff here.

I had originally started watching that thread on ADV, "vwdoctor" Then it kinda blew up. Like double the size from when I saw it.

Before, it was kind of a "oh nifty idea" thing to me, not really feasible...But....Since my bike is down for the explosive slave cylinder syndrome, and tires....I had thought about inspecting and cleaning the clutch just in case...so since it might be out, I am considering this quite seriously now. And....I really admire your ingenuity, here. I am huge fan of DIY solutions. that require some work to avoid huge cost.

Question: Are the spacers something you'll be keeping around for future orders? Or more of the "build interest, take names, then order" Thats fine too. I'm 40 shades of broke right now so might be a bit for me, but If i need to jump in, i can.... Or are you moving on from this completely? I'm not a member there as of yet, since there's not much "ADV" to my riding. (Commuting with occasional backroad romps) If I need to be, that wouldn't bother me, its an excellent site, I often come across when searching all things motorcycle.

Oh, I would use shoulder bolts, i prefer them to rivets. Plus, I have an endless supply of them at work from European printers.

again, nice work, and I appreciate all your effort and responses

[vwdoctor]

The original spacer I made was because I was cheap and didn't want to pay $600 for a modified clutch plate. Actually, I think it was the attitude of the video that made me do it.

As you probably know there are a couple possible solutions. (lets assume there is a problem )

1. Longer shaft (best and most expensive, also very labor intensive)
2. Modified clutch plate (cheapest, some work required, not for the scared kind)
3. Moving the clutch carrier back (IMHO, the best possible option, pure bolt up, shorter pushrod)

Every time I try to be done with the spacers and move on to the third option (which might not work) I get pulled back in by more people needing it.
As a point I am trying not to "push" the product and let the people make up their own minds about what they need or want.

I am watching most of the related sites so you can contact me here if need be.

[peels]

gotcha.

MY TAKE:

your spacer, though the cheapest and easiest, does not seem any less ideal than the other options, TO ME. All of them involve changing OEM design in some way. This one changes it the least invasively, and simply, while still solving 99.999999% of the problem.

-Making a new longer shaft...now, if you ask me, THAT'S what BMW should have done when this was noticed, really. you KNOW they KNOW. It is indeed, a Fabulous idea! but far too expensive for a 4000 dollar motorcycle to make sense for me. Id bet it would be close to the value of my bike if I paid labor LOL

-the other idea of moving the whole flywheel assembly...seems alot is involved with that, much to screw up for a "weekend wrencher". Which "scares" me slightly more. But still doable.

so in cost v return(which is my M.O.) you sir, have the golden ticket IMO. I see little difference between this and buying the one that has been pre modified. "bruno" or whatever. Not to take away from that piece AT ALL, its a wonderful solution. But at the cost...you've just paid someone 100's of dollars to do something you can do yourself, that isnt ALL that difficult. (to most) Id bet, most of the folks who know what this problem is, are smart enough to handle the repair.

My biggest curiosity, is why BMW didn't adjust this design immediately. Not a very expensive endeavour(relatively)...But, I suppose they would have to admit wrongdoing in that case, which wont happen I'm still very sad that I pined for this bike for YEARS, waiting to buy one, only to find out about this AFTER I did so ten years later.

anyhoooo...


If interested for sure, I will not hesitate to let you know. thank you again.



-Eric

[rocky2ie]

Great to see this feedback, I have bought a genuine clutch disc and am in the process of getting a spacer made here in Ireland, saves on freight, paypal etc. I would like to know if there is anything to be gained by leaving the spacer 6mm as opposed to 5mm or will I run into clearance problems?
I am going to fit it sometime during the winter, I will put up photos of my spline and the lack of wear . only 18000 miles.

[vwdoctor]

There are at least 4 of my spacers that are spinning in various bikes (including mine).
All of my parts are 6mm, there is no interference issue.
The only interference issue you might run into is if you use bolts.
Make sure bolt heads are on the side facing the engine and you might still run into a situation where boltheads touch the pressure plate. They will move away as you tighten the clutch cover bolts but still just so you know.

[vwdoctor]

-
My biggest curiosity, is why BMW didn't adjust this design immediately. Not a very expensive endeavour(relatively)...But, I suppose they would have to admit wrongdoing in that case, which wont happen

As somebody that works in the warranty department of a major German automotive company I can say that the only way BMW would know about this is if somebody in their warranty department rode a used R1150 with this issue and was actually interested in it.

This issue was very minor during the regular warranty period and was way under the radar.
In the case that some some transmissions and clutches were returned to suppliers in the warranty period, Getrag would have looked at the transmission and declared "customer abuse" and Sachs would have looked at the clutch and declared it "customer abuse". End of analysis
If the number of claims is under a threshold nobody really cares.
There is no mechanism for addressing an issue like this after the warranty is over.
The parts guy should have noticed when the original stock of clutches was exhausted but only if we cared enough to understand why.

Goodwill is handled by the BMW USA sales organization so there is really no parts analysis there.

And even in the extremely remote scenario where BMW knew about the issue there was no incentive to do anything, only liability. But again, very unlikely that they knew.
There is always this myth "oh they know, they know everything". I would like to think that I am fairly interested in what I do, but I have no way of knowing what happens to my parts after 4 years or 50000 miles. Motorcycle warranty is much shorter still.

[peels]

cheers, makes sense to me.

When I said that, I suppose i might have meant later on after much yapping on the web. My hindsight is really 20-20. well, even thats dwindling with age I was thinking adjust the design of the OEM clutch for people who need to replace them. even later on...

But...yeah...Maybe they did know, maybe they didn't-but probably too late to do anything useful by the time they did find out.... like you said. Its just a slightly sore subject for me. Like butthurt ego sorta sore subject. REALLY sore if mine goes out.

anyways, again, I like your solution, and its the most desirable choice for my clutch-if its affected.

[rocky2ie]

Thanks vwdocter, 6mm it is

[DKSTRWER]

Check Chris Harris vids on youtube for more... One also shows most of an input shaft replacement process. He has a lot to say on various vids and an article about the spline issue.

youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRZEzm ... nVKe7d-wIg

Article:
http://www.affordablebeemerservices.com/bmwthoughts/

Six speed input shaft replacement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INEhEkE6ejM

On the shaft replacement I would also replace all trans seals, which he doesn't say. Probably not absolutely necessary, but.


Definitely heed vw~'s advice on clutch use! I would replace the crap clutch slave cyl and lube the tip of the actuator rod as a matter of course at every spline lube.

Chris' advice to run over 4k RPM because as he states it is the low RPM "easy ridden" bikes that fail the most due to the low frequency impacts on splines from a low revving engine, while the hard-ridden GS' etc have not failed as much. It's the people who run 65 MPH in 6th that have the most failures, in his experience.

Lube ~ Guard Dog Moly GD525 ~ only way to go.

[sliding02]

There are at least 4 of my spacers that are spinning in various bikes (including mine).
All of my parts are 6mm, there is no interference issue.
The only interference issue you might run into is if you use bolts.
Make sure bolt heads are on the side facing the engine and you might still run into a situation where boltheads touch the pressure plate. They will move away as you tighten the clutch cover bolts but still just so you know.