Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

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John H
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Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by John H »

Hey Folks,

Just throwing out a question about decarboning to the maintenance gurus for feedback. I searched for a while but am not convinced what I should do, if anything (but of course I WANT to do something :) ).

I have an '04 R1150R with 23,000 miles on it. The bulk of my trips are city driving, and I don't often take the rpms above 4000 (which I suspect I may have to modify!). It runs well, valves are well adjusted/matched, TB's synced, there is a little shaking at idle, which is suspect is normal. I use 20W-50 mobil v-twin oil, chevron and 76 91 octane fuel.

For giggles I pulled off the spark plugs to have a look at the tops of the pistons, and it clearly has grainy carbon deposits on both. A bit more oily-looking on the left piston (normal, and I use the side stand often). Plugs look good - lite gray.

I've researched the issue, and I understand its normal, especially since I don't wind it up much. But I don't like black crap on my pistons :).

I've heard of few number of remedies, from simply adding seafoam to the gas, to getting it out on the freeway and winding it 5-7k rpms, to spraying water down the intake manifold, to sucking 2 oz of seafoam through the vacuum port on the throttle bodies and going for a high-rpm 50 mile blast.

What would you gearheads do? Thanks!!
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shake1150
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by shake1150 »

well, i'm not a mechanic... but...

what i would do is wind it up in top gear to about 150km/h (93 mph) and ride it hard for about 30 minutes to an hour.

i dont have any proof that this will help, but... it makes all my vehicles "feel" alot better after the hard drive. both my cars and bikes.

it might just be hogwash, but i'm a believer!! just my 2 cents.

maybe someone more mechanically inclined in this matter can chime in and give a proper answer.

on another note... winter is coming here in Canada (hockey season!), and these colder days make for some great driving! :D

ride safe.
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Corinthiano
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by Corinthiano »

Decarbonizing was something that was required 40 years ago when gasoline was more primitive and engines were too, had some oil blowby and burned it poorly. Modern engines burn so lean and their rings work so well that you don't have that problem. Really. Go out and enjoy riding your bike.
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by sweatmark »

CycleRob documented his R1150R decarbonization some years back. See his link to pics here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7337
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page62
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by page62 »

Are you familiar with the term "Italian tune-up"? That's a polite way of saying you need to get out there and run the snot out of it! That is all... 8)
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by John H »

Yes, I just got turned onto the "Italian tune up" term this afternoon. I can't quite do the 6th gear at 90+ mph carbon burn, but i did run it at 5-6k for about 15 miles while on the freeway. And I did do the seafoam up the vacuum port gig. Took a good 5 miles to pump that stuff out! But for sure I do think I've been babying that motor too much, keeping my rpms below 4k almost always.

Tomorrow I'm changing out the oil/filter, and I'll pull the plugs and have another look. Gonna pull the BBS's for the first time as well, and I'm wondering if I need to consider whether my TB's are functioning up to snuff. Still looking to optimize the smoothness rolling into 1st gear from a dead-stop - seems like its chugging just a bit more than I'm used to, a bit more shaking at idle, but maybe its in my head (or I'm not giving enough rpms!!). This is my first boxer, and I've only recently began doing all my own maintenance.

Thanks gents!!
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by boxermania »

John H

You are on the right track, these boxer engines are bullet proof and need to be operated in the upper range now and again.

If you riding is mostly city at low rpms, the idea is to get out once every two weeks and get the engine into a heat cycle to burn off and dislodge any excess carbon. The procedure is to speed and slow down the engine, say 4K to 7K (in the appropriate gear for the road conditions) for a few times and then select a gear where one can stay with traffic flow but in the 5K to 6K range. Idealy, the best way to get the above accomplished is to find a place with long sweeping bends that you can ride the bike in a lower gear(s) and keep the rpms in the 4.5K to 7K range, and have fun while doing it.

A can of Seafoam in the tank every 5 fills helps too.

For the shaking at idle make sure the BBS's are clean and the o-rings lubricated. The BBS should be bottomed lightly and then backed out 1 1/2 turns. Them proceed with the idle sync, I would shoot for slightly above 1100rpm idle and then proceed to the TB sync. Note: Make sure the vacuum lines on the underside of the TB's are not broken at the connection a they will allow air in and affectthe idle.

Good luck
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John H
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by John H »

Thanks bro... So, if the motor is tuned at its sweet spot, should there be very little shaking at idle?

And as far as starting up from a dead stop, the best way i can describe it is it feels a bit "boggy" until the rpms come up and I have first gear almost fully engaged. Almost like its lugging...

Many thanks...
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by boxermania »

John H

Being an opposed twin there is going to be a slight side to side rocking motion, however, this is most noticeable when cranking the accelerator in neutral. If the tune is dead on, there will be little motion at idle.

As far as stating from a dead stop you needto modulate the accelerator an the clutch release to the ppoint that when the clutch start grabbing both the clutch release and the accelerator muct operate at the same time.

The best way to get the hang of it is to get the "choke" (it's not really a chocke but a hand acceerator, all it does is increase the idle rpm's) to the middle tang and proceed from there until you develop a technique. Some owner's have difficulty modulating the clutch release with the acceleration during start up.
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by John H »

Thanks Boxerman...

Well, she's back running sweet again, no more of that bogginess from dead stop, back to what i remember to be a normal, slight idle shake. I do hear a bit of a subtle, regular knock at idle that has probably always been there and I'll attribute that to the L cam chain tensioner, which I'm not eager to throw down for.

I cleaned off the BBS's and lubed the rings. Question - are you supposed to clean anything down past the threads in the BBS bore? I took a look thru the spark plug holes and there was maybe some slight improvement in the carbon deposits from the seafoam-up-the-vacuum-tube gig. Another Italian Tune Up and seafoam in the next tank of fuel and I'll call it good.

But I think the culprit was a slightly off and mismatched valve adjustment. You know how its tricky to develop the feel of how to get the valves "just right", well, I think I finally figured out that i needed a slightly tighter feel on the feeler gauges, yet iteratively back the set screw off a touch before torquing the lock nut, checking, readjusting, re-torque, recheck, etc. It took a while, but if this setting holds up and stays smooth, I think I can say i got that part of tuning the beast down. Holding the valve setting for more than a few thousand miles was always a weak point. I tried the OVAD approach of guestimating the torque by hand, but the settings never seemed to hold for long.

Thanks a bunch... And as far as routine checking of the fuel injectors/throttle bodies, would you recommend anything else on a 6 year old bike with 23k miles (i.e., what can I dork around with next!!?)... Cheers!
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by CycleRob »

The "Italian tune-up" might seem like it cleans out the carbon, but the reality is it'll only remove small sections of it:
http://r1150r.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/O ... qWo2-O.jpg

The 2 best ways are to use the Seafoam in the fuel over several tanks worth -or- take it apart. When I took mine apart, I found, not something that could be just brushed away, but a hardened, strongly attached, "plated on" deposit:
http://r1150r.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/O ... qKMc-O.jpg

The Seafoam will slowly disolve/detach the carbon and eventually remove most of it. A slow-n-steady long term program with a 3/4 measure of the recommended dose would be my recommendation. You can occasionally peek into the sparkplug hole to monitor the progress.

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John H
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by John H »

Thanks for the info and posting those pics Rob, will do. I am gonna replace the cam tensioner after all, now that i found out it isn't a $200+ parts job.
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by chibbert »

Don't you all know that increased carbon build-up means decreased headspace volume above the piston which results in higher compression? =D> =D> =D>

Carbon build-up is like patina on fine antiques - DON'T REMOVE IT!!!


Obviously I am kidding. I think I will try the seafoam myself.
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by boxermania »

chibbert

You seem to be hoarding a lot of patina, can I get 3 pounds from you........ :-k :-k
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by chibbert »

I have more than 3 pounds to spare.
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by Dr. Strangelove »

Keeping the revs 4 k and below is foreplay. She is not interested in that and is FRUSTRATED and BORED by it.

These bikes LIKED to be flogged, really ridden hard, They revel in it. They thank you for it. They love it.

There is power above 4k that you have not tapped and wouldn't imagine from the docile behaviour below 4k.

You are being WAY too gentle. And I am NOT talking about trashing the bike, but revving that engine into ranges that it is made for, designed to perform, and is smile provoking.

With the cooler weather you have no excuse. What are you waiting for?

We expect a report to the class within the next week.

John
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by The Meromorph »

You should be riding mostly at 4000 rpm and above. 4000 rpm is the 'relaxed cruising' rpm.
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Re: Decarboning pistons/exhaust chambers?

Post by wncbmw »

On the best rides, the tach never drops below 4,000! :D Which is how I ride most of the time!
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