Batteries and battery chargers

[Bill Stevenson]

Although I have mentioned this in passing a couple of times in other threads, in view of the number of posts concerning battery failures, I decided to make this information more visible to everyone. At Daytona, during Bikeweek, I spoke with the Deltran people at their booth. As many of you know, Deltran makes very sophisticated battery chargers. I told them that I am on my third OEM battery on my R1200R and that I had recently bought a Deltran charger to try and improve battery life. The Deltran people told me that they make a special charger just for gel batteries and that they made it specifically because of the number of battery failures on recent BMW motorcycles. They said that their standard charger puts out slightly higher voltage than the gel battery charger and that their standard chargers could cause premature battery failure. Their gel charger is a special order item and it is not inexpensive.

While it would be ludicrous to blame all of the battery failures on chargers, it is worth taking note of this information and reacting accordingly.

Regards,

Bill

[bobw]

My battery charger is very expensive, but it is worth every penny and I love riding it. Serious note, excellent post. I ride year round and have never had to use a charger, but other "smart folks" have also told me the wrong set up can do more harm than good(improper charge rate). Thanks for the information.

Safe travels

Bob

[snag]

Bill,

Have you got some part numbers for the two chargers?

Doug

[NeilS]

Wait a minute! I thought we had AGM batteries, not gel-cells. The distinction is important, because the two types have very different charging voltage requirements. I know sometimes the terms are used interchangeably to refer to all sealed batteries, but Deltran should know better.

[Bill Stevenson]

Well I used gel but that might not be the right terminology. The Deltran people did know of the BMW battery situation and actually were calling their charger the BMW charger. It has a lower voltage and they were quite concerned that I not use their standard charger. I will get the part numbers for both chargers when my new charger comes in, it is on order and should be here in another week or so. BTW, I ride my bike year round and have never needed a charger before. This is just to try and improve the battery life. If this third battery dies I am going to buy a different brand. Getting a free one on warranty pales in comparison to having a dead battery in the middle of nowhere.

Bill

[hjsbmw]

Yes, AGM, at least mine.

On a different note: the manual makes a big deal of not to charge the battery while connected to the bike. As far as I am concerned, doing just that is exactly the point of having a battery tender, and I have done that with my other bikes. However, the BMW might have more elaborate electronics. Opinions, experiences?

[dderrig]

Yes, AGM, at least mine.

On a different note: the manual makes a big deal of not to charge the battery while connected to the bike. As far as I am concerned, doing just that is exactly the point of having a battery tender, and I have done that with my other bikes. However, the BMW might have more elaborate electronics. Opinions, experiences?

Frankly, I am not sure anyone but BMW could answer that question but the theory by many is they want you to buy their charger ($$$$$$)!!!!!! I have never heard of or had a problem with charging the battery with a direct connection to it while still installed on the bike.

Dave

[Dan-A]

The following is from this website:
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Batter ... 0Batteries

Emphasis added.

AGM, or Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries

A newer type of sealed battery uses "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM between the plates. This is a very fine fiber Boron-Silicate glass mat. These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled, but can take much more abuse. We sell the Concorde (and Lifeline, made by Concorde) AGM batteries. These are also called "starved electrolyte", as the mat is about 95% saturated rather than fully soaked. That also means that they will not leak acid even if broken.

AGM batteries have several advantages over both gelled and flooded, at about the same cost as gelled:

Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage.

Nearly all AGM batteries are "recombinant" - what that means is that the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine INSIDE the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.

The charging voltages are the same as for any standard battery - no need for any special adjustments or problems with incompatible chargers or charge controls. And, since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. The Concorde (and most AGM) batteries have no charge or discharge current limits.

AGM's have a very low self-discharge - from 1% to 3% per month is usual. This means that they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging than standard batteries. The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged.

AGM's do not have any liquid to spill, and even under severe overcharge conditions hydrogen emission is far below the 4% max specified for aircraft and enclosed spaces. The plates in AGM's are tightly packed and rigidly mounted, and will withstand shock and vibration better than any standard battery.

Even with all the advantages listed above, there is still a place for the standard flooded deep cycle battery. AGM's will cost 2 to 3 times as much as flooded batteries of the same capacity. In many installations, where the batteries are set in an area where you don't have to worry about fumes or leakage, a standard or industrial deep cycle is a better economic choice. AGM batteries main advantages are no maintenance, completely sealed against fumes, Hydrogen, or leakage, non-spilling even if they are broken, and can survive most freezes. Not everyone needs these features.

[NeilS]

Well, the cynic (and I'm one of those) would say that BMW wants you to buy their charger. But the reality is that BMW doesn't know the circuitry used in every aftermarket charger in the world. So the easy thing for them to say is "Don't do it."

Say there's some interaction between some Brand X charger and a particular defective battery, and the resulting overvoltage fries the bike's electronics. Then BMW finds itself in a pissing contest between themselves, the owner, and the manufacturer of the charger. They don't need the hassle, so they take the easy way out.

[Dan-A]

Well, the cynic (and I'm one of those) would say that BMW wants you to buy their charger. But the reality is that BMW doesn't know the circuitry used in every aftermarket charger in the world. So the easy thing for them to say is "Don't do it."

Say there's some interaction between some Brand X charger and a particular defective battery, and the resulting overvoltage fries the bike's electronics. Then BMW finds itself in a pissing contest between themselves, the owner, and the manufacturer of the charger. They don't need the hassle, so they take the easy way out.

I had the premature battery failure too. One minute it worked, the next minute it didn't. Was it caused by my Yuasa battery tender? I guess I'll never know, but the suddenness of the failure and complete and utter loss of voltage indicates an internal failure like a short or something, not a degradation caused by overcharging.

IMHO a battery that is being overcharged should start showing some sluggishness, followed by a decline in voltage enough to prevent adequate cranking power. Maybe AGM's are different.

My BMW battery gave not a whimper, and then next time could not provide any voltage. I might be safe in saying not everyone who experienced the failure even used a battery tender at all.

I say defective battery, and have had no issues with the replacement, which was delivered under warranty and lives on the same Yuasa battery tender its predecessor did.

[NeilS]

Dan,

I agree. I think BMW has installed a bunch of defective batteries in these bikes, and those defects have nothing to do with whether they're on chargers or not. But that's not what I was referring to in my post.

I'm hypothesizing a not-very-well-designed charger connected across one of those defective batteries. The charger energizes the bike's circuitry with some excessive voltage, and this burns out a bunch of the bike's electronics. This is a very expensive warranty repair for BMW, far more expensive than the cost of a new battery. So BMW says that anyone not using an official BMW charger must disconnect the battery from the bike's wiring before charging it. That eliminates those expense warranty claims and also tends to sell more BMW chargers.

[kidtwist]

So BMW says that anyone not using an official BMW charger must disconnect the battery from the bike's wiring before charging it. That eliminates those expense warranty claims and also tends to sell more BMW chargers.

According to the manual for my 2009 R1200R BMW says you must disconnect the battery EVEN WHEN charging with a BMW charger.

[websterize]

According to the manual for my 2009 R1200R BMW says you must disconnect the battery EVEN WHEN charging with a BMW charger.

Would you mind posting what page in the manual you saw this?

Page 122 (Battery: Maintenance Instructions) of my owner's manual reads "BMW Motorrad has developed a float charger specifically designed for compatibility with the electronics of your motorcycle. Using this charger, you can keep the battery charged during long periods of disuse, without have to disconnect the battery from the motorcycle's on-board systems."

But only with "suitable chargers." If you charge at the battery terminals (and not the power socket), the manual says to disconnect the battery so you don't "cause problems with the on-board electrics."

I bought BMW charger 71 60 7 688 865 with my bike and plug it every few days. Charges full to 3/3 every time.

[ErikM]

The BMW battery is a gel battery.. they suck. On my K12GT one of the first things I did was replace the BMW battery with an Odessey AGM battery.. There are and have been many failures of the BMW gel batteries.. One day good, one day bad. A dead battery is a total show stopper. And the worst part is no sign of impending doom, just nothing.

[8b]

I have a fairly early R12R, in service date was October 2006 and warr runs thru Oct 2009. I am the sendond owner but can only assume the battery is original as I purchased it two years ago and I am sure the original battery is in there. Am I playing with fire not proactively changing the battery, or will the "if it ant broke, dont fix it" philosopy be ok.

[lewellen]

I have a fairly early R12R, in service date was October 2006 and warr runs thru Oct 2009. I am the sendond owner but can only assume the battery is original as I purchased it two years ago and I am sure the original battery is in there. Am I playing with fire not proactively changing the battery, or will the "if it ant broke, dont fix it" philosopy be ok.

Three years is getting a little long in the tooth for a cycle battery, in my experience anyway.

Also, the warranty on the battery is only two years, not three ... or so I was told when I brought mine in (an '08 purchased in October 2007) for under-warranty battery repair back in ... February? March?

When mine failed, there were some early signs and warnings but not much before total failure. E.g. took a couple of tries to start a day or two before the final failure, with an odd "system reset" on the cluster (e.g. all gauges doing their power-on cal swings, etc.) after the bike started up. The next day, the bike started fine the first time, but then completely failed to start after I stopped at a gas station to fill it up before heading into work. Putting it on a tender would get it charged enough to start the bike, but it wouldn't hold a charge.

The main thing with charging is, do you ride it enough on each ride for the battery to get charged? In my case I have a 5-mile ride to work (usually moderate traffic), and I suspect this is not enough to get the battery fully recharged after starting it up.

Speaking of which - it's time to head out for a ride. :-) Think I'll head up the coast today.

Good roads,

- Lewellen

[redwing]

I'm sure I have a gel battery in my 2008 R1200R. I bought the bike May 5th this year. I rode once or twice a week for perhaps 300 miles and had to charge the battery if I didn't ride every three days. I bought a battery charger from a store that sells farming supplies. I removed the battery to charge it the first and it was a success but only lasted a few days (3 or 4). Then I tried connecting to the battery while in the bike and did not disconnecting the wires. Again a success and almost identical results. The sales manager said the bike was setup to connect to the power outlet for charging. The sales manager also sold me a plug ($10.00) specifically for charging the battery inside the bike. They said just buy a charger from walmart, hook the plug up to the charger and plug it in. So I did just that. The battery went dead and even though the charger showed fully charged it would not turn over the motor. And I was ready to ride.
The dealer I bought the bike from is 500 miles away or I would have gone back to that dealer. I contacted a dealer close by and they checked the battery. It showed fully charged but had no amps. The dead battery had a 2009 expiration date (in a 2008 bike ??) and they replaced the battery. They credited BMW the cost of about $100.00.
Now I ride on my off days, every five days and have had no problems. I don't use the charger at all. The expiration date on the new battery is 2010. My first bike and wow.

[hammick]

Yes, AGM, at least mine.

On a different note: the manual makes a big deal of not to charge the battery while connected to the bike. As far as I am concerned, doing just that is exactly the point of having a battery tender, and I have done that with my other bikes. However, the BMW might have more elaborate electronics. Opinions, experiences?

I have owned numerous BMW bikes (as well as others) and have used one of these on all of them:

http://www.batteryminders.com/batterych ... 16134.html

I have never had a problem. Before I take a roadtrip or go camping with the Car or SUV I will use it overnight on the car for a couple nights. I don't know if the desulfator function really does anything but I haven't bought a battery in years. Nor have I had to jumpstart anything. The longest piece of equipment I currently own that hasn't needed a battery is my JD tractor. I bought it used so I don't know the age of the battery but I have owned it for three years with no battery issues.

I am not a believer in needing a trickle charger installed all the time. Every month or so I rotate this around my equipment. If I am taking a bike on a trip it goes on it a couple days before.

You can pick these up for as little as $35 and they come with the pigtail and clips. Very small and easy to use.

Only caveat is you cannot charge throught he canbus with this charger. Need to go directly to the battery.

[deilenberger]

Knocking on maple grained formica(tm)..

I have never used a charger on the R1200R - and it's at 28,000 miles and change today on the original battery. It has rarely sat for more than a week without riding - but a few longer car vacations did leave it for a few weeks. I probably have, and use more electronic farkles than the average bear (lights, heated gear, heated butt, more lights and more.. GPS, etc..)

I think the charging system on the bike is more than adequate - if you have problems with the battery discharging you have a bad battery.

YMMV as may your battery..

(At MOA rally in TN - 748.9 miles from my door.. I had figured 750. Almost all back roads. Found some WONDERFUL roads in VA - Rt 42 - parallels 81, then Saltworks Road and Old Saltworks Road.. just heaven! Make Rt 100 in VT look like the overrated road it is.)

[Bill Stevenson]

Since I started this thread it is only courteous to provide an update. I returned the Deltran charger that I had purchased and received a full credit. This charger is their standard product for all batteries except the new style batteries. Since I ride my bike almost every day year round, Deltran questioned why I need a trickle charger. On their recommendation, I did not buy one of their chargers designed for our new style batteries, and have not had any problems since. It is possible that my second battery was damaged by using a charger with the wrong voltage. Deltran thinks that this is very likely. This is a reputable company and they have nothing gain by this recommendation other than maintaining their good reputation. It seems clear that if you don't really need a trickle charger, there is no benefit, but if your bike sits unused for protracted periods of time it would seem prudent to buy a charger designed specifically for the new type batteries used in our machines.

Regards,

Bill