Cyclerob - Clutch Spline Greasing?

[frozennorth]

Calling Cyclerob Tried posting this in another thread, but it got buried. How often does the clutch spline need to be greased? Cyclerob made mention of this. I don't remember seeing this in a level 1 service or did I miss something How do I do this

Cheers

FN

[combustor777]

I don't have CR's expertise but I've done some extensive research across the message boards on this subject. The conclusion I've come up with is that certain bikes have a misalignment issue that causes splines to be eaten in X number of miles. Lubing them seems to make little difference with some reporting that they got maybe 10k extra miles before the splines went, but they went anyway. Not worth the hassle since you have to pull the whole bike apart to get to it. If you get a tranny with good alignment, they go 200k without lube.

Since they seem to go out around mid 30's to mid 40's (thousand miles, you'll have to convert to kilometers or whatever I guess) I plan on pulling the starter and inspecting my splines a little before then. (quick inspection from what I understand) If they are mostly gone, I know its time to trade in. If they look new, I'll keep the bike another 100k.

[frozennorth]

Combustor, do you have any documentation on how to check the alignment or a link to a website that shows the procedure. I'm just coming up on 40k miles (I've got a US bike), and think a check would be good.

FN

[combustor777]

Checking the alignment is a little outside my skill although there are several sites documenting it with guys making different contraptions holding precision instruments and factoring in float with oil film etc, coming up with misalignment in a few thousandths of an inch in one direction or dimension. I can get you some links if you're interested I'll just have to do a little digging again to find it.

Now if you just want to check the lash between output shaft and clutch splines, that is apparently much easier, a matter of pulling the starter out. Once the starter is out you can see some of the splines as well as feel how much backlash there is. To me this is much more relevant than measuring alignment which was more of an attempt to verify a theory of explaining the "spline chewing phenomenon". I think there is a detailed thread in here of someone pulling the starter and a mention of measurements. I think I'm going to go out and try it on my bike right now. I'll let you know how it goes.

[combustor777]

a warning from cyclerob about starter removal if you don't disconnect the battery ground:

"The starter is one of the easiest components to remove. I just removed mine for the 4th time a few weeks ago this time for inspection/cleaning/greasing. It wasn't bad at all, but it seems to work better at releasing from the engine when it starts. Credit the cleaning/greasing of the Bendix's spiral shaft.

I took it apart hot . . . . that's to say without disconnecting the battery negative cable to avoid the tedious tank lift disassembly required. It can be really really very dangerous if you do not understand the power and danger of wrenching on and removing the (hot) positive cable. If the copper end of the cable OR the wrench on the nut comes into contact with metal on the bike there will be a HUGE SPARK and certain destruction of whatever parts touched together -PLUS- the great possibility it will weld itself solidly into place turning the circuit to ground red hot & smoking. Then in less than a minute the battery will EXPLODE when the electrolyte boils and flashes to steam!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS WARNING??????

That said, I slowly loosened the tight nut in 4 small and narrow swings of the wrench. Finger loosened the nut and removed it. With a foot long thick rubber hose at the ready I carefully removed the cable and slid the hose over it. Then position it so it's out of the way and the hose cannot come off. Lastly, it's just 2 Allen headed bolts to remove, one hidden behind the starter, and it falls downward and out to the rear. The replacement goes in just as easy."

[AdrianS]

If you want to crudely check the play by removing the starter:

First remove the starter - be careful with shorting the connections! ( I use a piece of plastic hose pipe over the positive lead after carefully removing it).

You need to pull the clutch lever in and hold it to the handlebars - I use a strong cable (zip) tie to do this.

You can then get a screwdriver to push the cluth plate up and down very gently without moving the gearbox input shaft to see how much free play there is. Someone has worked out the figures but if it is no more than a couple of millimetres you probably are ok.

It is a crude method but would probably indicate if the splines were about to go if the free play was very excessive!

Also an ideal time to clean the starter mechanism and re lubricate it ( relatively easy to do)

[Boxer Briefs]

I wish you had posted this last week! I had the starter out to clean it up on Monday and would have attempted to check the clutch spline. But on the upside, the starter is much quieter now

[CycleRob]

From what I've heard from dealer service departments and read about everywhere else, the R1150 OilHeads do not require any clutch spline greasing servicing. Older AirHead BMW's did have that requirement, so that's why it spilled over to the newer models.

One problem though . . . . those "no maintenance" splines are failing at much too high a rate, considering similar designs in other vehicles THAT NEVER EVER FAIL !!!

Most prone to fail are the R1150RT models that routinely experience high cruising speeds and carry heavy loads. The reason for failure, obvious to anyone that notices the spline's partial axial engagement and has seen the failed parts, is poor design and very likely improper materials in the clutch hub.

Because of expensive components that can be damaged, like the swingarm pivot bolt threads in the rear transmission case, this is not a job for those of limited experience and basic tools. Considering spline failures have occurred with as little as 11,000 miles, choosing a good time to take yours apart for inspection and greasing doesn't seem possible. A good number might be 25K or 30K miles. Even with my 2002 model's odometer reading 61,877 miles (99,581 km) I initially dreaded the thought of having to take so much of the bike apart (the 1st time), but once the parts started accumulating on the floor and in my pickup's bed, it was almost therapeutic. I was impressed with what can only be described as sophisticated engineering, yet troubled why such brilliance and visually premium quality parts have so many troubling, very costly failures. There was a anxious moment leading up to pulling the transmission out for my 1st look at what could be a very costly R&R if the splines were worn. It turned out better than I thought but my plans to trade it in for a new F800ST still went forward. While "in there" I cleaned out the throttle junction box, found out my clutch slave was destroyed and added a TransOil/DOT4 drain fitting and line to the clutch slave housing.

Here's the album:
http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/ ... plineLube/

.

[taosports]

A fascinating look inside our bikes...thanks for posting the link to your photos Cyclerob.

[frozennorth]

Thanks all for the insight In summary . . .

Cyclerob, if I read correctly, greasing the clutch spline is not a necessary service, unless you have a substantial amount of the drivetrain already pulled apart?

And . . .

For a quick check, pull the starter, and check for large amounts of play.

Looked at your album . . . I like twisting wrenches, have good tools a heated garage and even a motorcycle hoist , but THAT looks like a HUGE undertaking.

Cheers

FN

[Boxer]

THAT looks like a HUGE undertaking

I'm about to do the same procedure very soon. I have a new (to me-19K miles)drive shaft on the way from a seller in Canada and when that arrives I'm diving in. Of course I have Rob just 54 miles away for when I get "stuck".

We recently did that big FD bearing replacement, so most of the anticipated anxiety surrounds the removal of those front swing-arm pivot pins with the uber Deutsch red loctite on them!

Depending on how those splines look, I may also be trading for a new F800ST.

[two wheel tango]

I'm about to do the same procedure very soon. I have a new (to me-19K miles)drive shaft on the way from a seller in Canada and when that arrives I'm diving in.

Hi Boxer,

Is this just a preemptive undertaking? How many miles on your bike? How did your FD look when you took it apart?

Just curious... I'm at 72K and all this talk is starting to put a damper on my summer plans to ride some remote canadian roads...

[AndyRR]

I'm at 72K and all this talk is starting to put a damper on my summer plans to ride some remote canadian roads...

I think you're OK. If you were going to have a failure, the evidence suggests that it would have happened by now. By all means, do the quick check. I took measurements off of a dry, new spline shaft and clutch. There was minimal rotational freeplay at the circumference of the clutch. Around 1-2 mm if I recall correctly. The play would be less after grease is applied.
This is all assuming you mean 72K MILES.

[combustor777]

Just did the starter pull check on mine. Play was around 3/32" at the absolute max, probably less but I'm just being conservative and I didn't measure, was just eyeballing. Bike has 19006 miles. Unengaged part of splines looked brand new, no grease or corrosion or dirt. That part was surprising. One related question is that my disc has a groove cut in it on the outer edge, maybe 1/16" deep. Not too worried about it but was curious if "TADT"?



I know cell phone pic with flashlight is kinda blurry (and sideways but bear with me). There were strands of copper wire or something coming out of where the groove is cut into the material. Don't think it will hurt anything but want a second opinion.

[sweatmark]

AndyRR-

I have another very interested party for the revised transmission input shaft, owner of an independent shop with beautiful R1150GS and an HP2. He was aware of the effort by "GSaddict" on ADV board to create input shaft prototype, but like many of us not pleased to see the $1000- each cost of the new part.

As mentioned a few months ago, I'm also "in" for the new input shaft, whether I need it or not for Roadster or Rockster in garage.

[Boxer]

Two Wheel Tango- Sort of preemptive but based on sound findings by Rob when he took his apart a while back with 60K on his. Mine has 79K and the driveshaft had a fairly large "notch" in the rear U-Joint when working it back and forth. Rob didn't have a suggestion why it would wear in this way but he DID suggest getting a new one soon!
My FD bearing was not real bad, but we changed it out anyway. The smaller inside one was okay to stay in but my FD pivot pin needle bearings were toast and the pins themselves were replaced since the right side one had measurable grooves worn into it from the bad bearings. I didn't pull the swing arm off at that time.

My plan is to tear it down to the transmission, and pull it off to lube/check the splines. My next move will depend on how the splines look.

[CycleRob]

combustor777, That groove in the center is the steel frame of the clutch disc, which has copper fiber impregnated fiber discs riveted to each side. The copper dissipates the heat. What you're seeing is normal.
TADT.

Boxer,
I didn't realize at the time that you wanted a full explanation. I was prolly so freaked out because THAT driveshaft had to go back into the bike and be ridden. I'd like the old DS for future show-n-tells to follow.

Driveshaft U-joints go bad from any of the following:
--A gazillion miles = normal service life.
--Water or more likely dirty water gets inside needle bearing. Rust makes it die soon.
--Sealed in internal grease flys out past old cracked/leaky/damaged seal(s). Lack of lube makes it die soon.
--Extreme service during extreme heat (90 MPH for 1 hour in 95 degF heat) (145 kph for 1 hr in 35 degC) damages seals and liquefies the soon-to-be-gone internal grease.

Cars have the U-joints down low to the road, spinning like crazy in a very hostile environment, expected to survive 15 years of 70+ MPH (112.6 kph) sand sprays in good weather and dirty water sprays both typical of an interstate highway when it rains. Our Roadsters have the U-joints well protected from any dirt or water inside the rubber boot sealed hollow swingarm -but- there can be a damaging heat level build-up if the rider rides like Boxer sometimes does.

That notchiness in your U-joint felt like the bearing needles were dry and deformed/scored. It had way too much resistance just to tilt the drive yoke in my hands. I'm really surprised it has not failed yet, considering the number of long distance, loaded down, high speed commutes to group meets you've made. Boxermania is right . . . . "that bike is about to turn to dust!"

.

[Ritchard]

Gents,

Is there a source for the rear U joints for the 1150r? My bike has started to feel like maybe it'd like a new one. When turning a left corner at slower speeds with two-up - only intermittently - you get a kind of rumbly vibration in the drive system behind and below me.

Today it developed a creaking sound when the suspension was weighted down. The creaking seemed to be coming from the pivot pin at the final drive. This was after running medium-hard on the freeway, then 10 mins of urban riding getting the rest of the way home. When it cooled, it seemed to have gone away.

How big a job is replacing a u-joint? Or, any other diagnostic ideas?