12K Service Heart Attack

[RonR]

I know this subject has been kicked around before, but I wanted to share some current info and ask a couple of questions.

I got quotes today for a 12K service from the two dealers that I do business with here in the greater LA area. I visited the first (20 miles away), got a print out of BMW's maintenance schedule and walked through it with the service manager. The factory recommended "major" service includes all the fluids (except final drive which is done at 600 miles and never again unless the customer requests), oil and air filters, valve adjustment, throttle sync, and a long list of inspections and tests: brakes, clutch, lights, fault memory, etc. Not included are spark plugs, generator belt (both due at 24K miles), and front brake fluid change (done with the ABS recall). The cost: $480.

I then called the other dealer, 40 miles away, which I have had better experiences with. I started by asking for the 12K service, wondering if they would use the same list of items. $635. So we walked through the list, found they had included spark plugs, and got a new quote of $555 without the plugs.

The purpose of this exercise, aside from needed the 12K service, was to get an apples-to-apples comparison between dealers. What I wasn't prepared for was the unbelievable increase in cost over past services. My 6K service, performed at the second dealer, totaled $311, including 3 hours of labor at $84/hr.

My question for the group: Are you seeing prices similar to these? If not, what do you consider to be a fair price for a 12K service?

[Lost Rider]

Buy a BMW service DVD.
Buy Jim Von B's maintenance DVD.
Buy ALL tools needed.
Buy all parts and fluids needed.
Ask questions in here or on ADV. (R1200GS) maintenance will be the same....
The total will still be less than either of those rip-off quotes.

Have the satisfaction of doing it yourself and not feeling like you were bend over and f@cked hard in the ass for mediocre work at ANY dealer.

It is not hard to do your own maintenance, nothing they do at any dealer with basic maintenance is worth $100 an hour.
If you plan on keeping your R for years, you might want to do the FD fluid change - a cheap piece of insurance for a long life of the FD.

My 2¢

Finn

[deilenberger]

I know this subject has been kicked around before, but I wanted to share some current info and ask a couple of questions.

I got quotes today for a 12K service from the two dealers that I do business with here in the greater LA area. I visited the first (20 miles away), got a print out of BMW's maintenance schedule and walked through it with the service manager. The factory recommended "major" service includes all the fluids (except final drive which is done at 600 miles and never again unless the customer requests), oil and air filters, valve adjustment, throttle sync, and a long list of inspections and tests: brakes, clutch, lights, fault memory, etc. Not included are spark plugs, generator belt (both due at 24K miles), and front brake fluid change (done with the ABS recall). The cost: $480.

Actually - current recommendation from BMW is rear-drive oil change every 12k - on the new bikes. And nothing has changed from the older bikes except the printing in their service schedule. The dealer should have known this. And the 24,000 mile alternator belt replacement is no longer valid. That dates back to the 1150 engines. I believe the new change interval is either 36,000 or 48,000 miles (since they went to the stretchy belt and no adjustment needed or supposed to be done.)

Plugs are due at 24,000 miles - but while I did change mine - the plugs that came out looked perfect and I wouldn't hesitate to take them another 12,000 miles. And while I did change my rear-drive fluid - what came out looked exactly like what I was putting in - a clear (no suspended particles/glitter/crap) red fluid. I suspect the 12,000 mile recommendation of rear-drive fluid is overkill. 24,000 it looked fine, and I think at 36,000 it would also still be fine. It had the 600 mile change, and I suspect that is really the important one.

I then called the other dealer, 40 miles away, which I have had better experiences with. I started by asking for the 12K service, wondering if they would use the same list of items. $635. So we walked through the list, found they had included spark plugs, and got a new quote of $555 without the plugs.

The purpose of this exercise, aside from needed the 12K service, was to get an apples-to-apples comparison between dealers. What I wasn't prepared for was the unbelievable increase in cost over past services. My 6K service, performed at the second dealer, totaled $311, including 3 hours of labor at $84/hr.

My question for the group: Are you seeing prices similar to these? If not, what do you consider to be a fair price for a 12K service?

I have no idea since I do it ALL myself. My bike has been to the dealer once for the EWS and brake-line recall. I talked them into a computer update while it was in. Doing it yourself really isn't hard, and doing it once will more than pay for any tools you need to purchase. There is a great set of DIY instructions being developed on the BMW-MOA Hexhead forum - complete with step by step, photos, tools lists, parts lists, etc. There are one or two still being worked on - but basically everything you need to actually do (not "inspect" - ie - eyeball) is done.

Take a look at: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=44

Most of them assumed you owned an RT - a much harder bike to work on because of the plastic in the way. In cases where something is actually different on other models - we've tried to note this. Valve adjustment, air-cleaner, oil changes, rear-drive oil change, transmission oil change - all there. More will be coming on line shortly.

Anyway - I think what I'm saying, and Joe Finn is saying - you CAN DIY unless you really are dangerous with a screwdriver - and save yourself a bunch of money. The real upside is - you know it was done and done right - and you become familiar with the working of the bike, which can give you confidence in being able to do something if you have problems on a trip.

Basics for the 12k service are:

• Oil change
• Air filter optional (if needed from riding in dusty/sandy conditions - otherwise 24,000 miles.)
• Rear drive fluid change (use BMW 75W-90 synthetic)
• Transmission fluid change is 24,000 mile, not at 12,000.
• Brake fluid is a 2 year change interval - no mileage - but if it's close to 2 years - do it. If the bike had the brake line recall done - the fluid WAS changed for the front circuit at that time.
• Valve adjustment
• Thottle-body sync is very unlikely to be needed - mine has never needed it once the valves are adjusted correctly (big improvement over airheads and the 1100/1150 engines)
• Check brake pads for wear - especially the rear ones - they wear much faster than the fronts.
• Look bike over for anything loose or odd looking

I did the above over the course of one week - spent a few hours on a Saturday, then a few hours one night. And it was done correctly and the bike was ready to go. Total cost - probably $150 in parts (oils, filters, spark-plugs, sealing gasket rings). I spent the remainder of what it would have cost on two new Pilot-Road-II tires (wonderful tire IMHO..)

[WILDPIG]

LMAO-- WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF BMW........................

[crazyhorse]

well doesn't sound crazy unreasonable but, you know, this isn't a honda as others have noted.

i agree, do it yourself or just spend the money and do it.

brown motor works is much cheaper than irv seaver, i assume these are the two dealers. you could try long beach but i assume they will be in the middle somewhere.

i'm in pasadena but just did my 6K, otherwise we could do our 12K together...

[tobes]

I had my 12k service done about a month ago: $527 with rear drive done and they put synthetic oil in the engine. Ouch. I'm determined to learn to do this myself. Only thing that makes me nervous is doing the valve adjustment. I'd like to actually watch someone do it before trying it.

[RonR]

Only thing that makes me nervous is doing the valve adjustment. I'd like to actually watch someone do it before trying it.

That's it exactly. I'm fairly well-equipped and experienced with tools in general and with doing minor maintenance on cars and bikes, but I've never attempted a valve adjustment. Thanks to all for your responses and encouragement. I'm going to get the DVDs and any additional tools needed and go for it.

brown motor works is much cheaper than irv seaver, i assume these are the two dealers...

Yeah, those are the culprits. I have used both for service on several bikes over the years and found Irv Seaver to be the more satisfactory of the two. The prices from each have been similar up until now. BMW dealer service, in general, has always come at a premium, but the current quotes have pushed me over the edge. I'll do it myself. I may have a few questions along the way...

[thepeacebullgrunt]

In 2 weeks or so I will have my 6K service
If I was not so busy with other stuff, had all the tools and space I will do the same....hopefully all these things will come soon.

There is also Valdi in Torrance that works on BMW as independent.. (Family small Business)
I think he will be cheaper than all your estimate's.

And a German guy named Matt that works only on BMW with his associate in a discreet Warehouse in Long Beach. (Funny Crazy Scientist Looking guy... "Back to the Future" type of guy )

Don't know why one or the other will not do a 12K service, I will be curious to hear how much they'll charge for that.

PM me if you need Valdi or Matt phone numbers...

[lewellen]

Only thing that makes me nervous is doing the valve adjustment. I'd like to actually watch someone do it before trying it.

Understandable. But:

If I can do it on a '94 CB1000 (an inline upright four, four valves per cylinder, plus a valve cover that has to be maneuvered out between the frame and block), you can do it on a BMW with two cylinders, nicely having the cylinder heads pointed out and easy to access.

Let me add some general suggestions:

• Do it on a day when the dealer's open, and you can get there for a part if needed.
• Budget 2 - 3 times as much time as you think you'll need for the first time through. You don't want to feel rushed.
• Make sure you have all the required tools and parts before hand; consider buying a couple of spares for things like gaskets (see above points)
• Measure all clearances first. Then turn the engine over a couple of times manually, and repeat the measurements - make sure you're measuring consistently.
• Remeasure all clearances the same way - twice, with some turns in between - after the adjustment's done.

Take it slow, think before you change anything, and you should be okay.

Over and above the cost savings, there's a tremendous feeling of satisfaction you get from doing something like this yourself. Money really can't buy that "oh yeah!" feeling you get.

Good roads,

- Lewellen

[daveyator]

I would up at irv seaver also. Yea you pay a premium but I too "feel" much better about them working on my bike. I was quoted $554 for the 12k. They also found a serious problem with leaking clutch shaft seals or something. The bike wound up being there for a few days getting that warranty repair done. They even gave me a loaner bike. The only sign was a (to me) small oil weep on the back of the engine. Its stuff like that I would be afraid of missing.

[RonR]

OK, so far I have ordered:

Jim Von Baden DVD, $33.00
'06-'07 R1200R (mine's '07) Service Repair Manual, PDF version (apparently ripped from the factory program) $19.45 on eBay
Oil filter wrench, $19.95, Beemer Boneyard
Mann Air Filter, $18.95, same
Liqui-Moly Synth motor oil (5 gal.), Mann oil filter, Trans & FD Synth fluid (500 ml), crush washers, $84.95, same
DOT4 brake fluid (500 ml), $4.99, same
Servo Assist Bleed/Flush funel tool, $49.95, same
Beemer Bonyard shipping, $25

About $257.00, of which about $123.00 is one-time. Seems acceptable so far. I have all the metric sockets, torx and hex tools, a torque wrench, etc.

Question about valve cover gaskets. On my invoice for the 6K service I was charged for two inner gaskets, but not for outer gaskets. Do I assume the inners need to be replaced each time the valve cover is removed and the outers at some other interval? If so, what would that interval be?

[crazyhorse]

thanks for posting that list, with sources, ron.

can anyone tell me is the 06-07 service manual DVD that is all over ebay (i was even directed there by the dealer to get one since theirs are always outdated!) will be the same or similar enough for an 08 bike?

i suppose the same question put another way is does anyone have a list of differences between the 07 and 08 other than paint? i suspect very little... maybe nothing at all.

re: dealers, i have had both brown and irv work on my bikes. brown is closer if i have to get the family to pick me up. irv is right next to my in-laws so i end up hanging out there and buying gear (jackets, boots, helmets) quite a bit. of course irv's is full of great guys who remember your name.

wes

[deilenberger]

OK, so far I have ordered:
Servo Assist Bleed/Flush funel tool, $49.95, same

You do NOT need this for this bike. We don't have no stink'in servo assist. Thats for whizzy brake models, and no R12R's have whizzy brakes (a true blessing IMHO..)

About $257.00, of which about $123.00 is one-time. Seems acceptable so far. I have all the metric sockets, torx and hex tools, a torque wrench, etc.

Question about valve cover gaskets. On my invoice for the 6K service I was charged for two inner gaskets, but not for outer gaskets. Do I assume the inners need to be replaced each time the valve cover is removed and the outers at some other interval? If so, what would that interval be?

Actually - if you're a careful sort - both are reusable for a LONG time. Mine is still on originals at 24,000 miles. The oilhead motors tended to eat the inner gasket due to a wacky design (flaw IMHO) - the hexhead doesn't have that wacky design, and mine come out looking just as good as then went in at the factory.

[deilenberger]

thanks for posting that list, with sources, ron.

can anyone tell me is the 06-07 service manual DVD that is all over ebay (i was even directed there by the dealer to get one since theirs are always outdated!) will be the same or similar enough for an 08 bike?

i suppose the same question put another way is does anyone have a list of differences between the 07 and 08 other than paint? i suspect very little... maybe nothing at all.

Aside from colors - and the centerstand shrinking 1/2" - nothing changed. The Ebay one should be just fine.

re: dealers, i have had both brown and irv work on my bikes. brown is closer if i have to get the family to pick me up. irv is right next to my in-laws so i end up hanging out there and buying gear (jackets, boots, helmets) quite a bit. of course irv's is full of great guys who remember your name.

wes

Something to be said for having your name remembered.

[waynemathews]

can anyone tell me is the 06-07 service manual DVD that is all over ebay (i was even directed there by the dealer to get one since theirs are always outdated!) will be the same or similar enough for an 08 bike?

wes

My copy of the manual DVD (purchased 2 weeks ago) is labeled 3rd edition, 02/2009. Unfortunately, there is not a readily apparent listing of changes. What edition is the 06-07 manual?

[RonR]

This is what I ordered: BMW R1200R Service Manual (Release 4th edition 06/2006). Seller is Manual Pro 12 on eBay.

[lewellen]

Actually - if you're a careful sort - both [valve cover gaskets] are reusable for a LONG time. Mine is still on originals at 24,000 miles. The oilhead motors tended to eat the inner gasket due to a wacky design (flaw IMHO) - the hexhead doesn't have that wacky design, and mine come out looking just as good as then went in at the factory.

True ... but I find that if I have spares on-hand for things like that, I can re-use the originals fairly regularly. If I don't have a spare, I have a much higher probability of pinching the gasket (or some such stupidness), thereby requiring a trip to the dealer, et cetera.

Good roads,

- Lewellen

[deilenberger]

Actually - if you're a careful sort - both [valve cover gaskets] are reusable for a LONG time. Mine is still on originals at 24,000 miles. The oilhead motors tended to eat the inner gasket due to a wacky design (flaw IMHO) - the hexhead doesn't have that wacky design, and mine come out looking just as good as then went in at the factory.

True ... but I find that if I have spares on-hand for things like that, I can re-use the originals fairly regularly. If I don't have a spare, I have a much higher probability of pinching the gasket (or some such stupidness), thereby requiring a trip to the dealer, et cetera.

Good roads,

- Lewellen

Ah - you're invoking Eilenberger's Law of Spares: You'll never need the part you have.

http://www.eilenberger.net/laws.htm

[lewellen]

Ah - you're invoking Eilenberger's Law of Spares: You'll never need the part you have.

http://www.eilenberger.net/laws.htm

Indeed.

Actually, I know this one as Lewellen's Laboratory Law #4 - the further away you are in space-time from a potentially needed component, the more likely you are to need it.

#1 - in case of a conflict, Murphy's Laws override Newton's.
#2 - if it worked right the first time, something's wrong with your experiment.
#3 - the more expensive or time-consuming to replace something is, the more likely you'll break it, especially when showing someone else how to not break it.

I suspect a number of us have made these discoveries independently over the years....

Good roads,

- Lewellen

[RonR]

You do NOT need this for this bike. We don't have no stink'in servo assist. Thats for whizzy brake models, and no R12R's have whizzy brakes (a true blessing IMHO..)

OK, you got me. What are "whizzy brakes?"