bike won't start question

[babulin2002]

I need a bit of help guys
After 2 months of the bike ('94 R1100 R) sitting in the garage for winter, i took it out a week ago and tried to start up. It would start but only for several seconds. There was some short-circuiting going on, the starter would self-engage etc. So i thought maybe some moisture got in (my garage sucks) so i took the battery out, stripped the bike a bit and had it stay in the sun for some time to dry. Few days later i installed the battery (recharged), no short-circuit anymore, everything is as it should be, just that the motor doesn't start (starter works). So, my question is: do i have to do something, like resetting some electronics by pulling fuses/relays, after the battery's been out for a while? (i mean other than resetting the motronic unit) Or what else can it be ? (i did not dismantle any crucial parts when stripping the bike, just took the seats & tank covers off and lifted the tank a bit, took the front cover hiding the alternator belt etc). I did search here on the forums and didn't find any clues, just the motronic reset...
Btw, i did find a dead mouse that got stuck in the alternator belt, luckily was a small one and did not affect the belt operation, just got dried/burned/elongated a bit. Must have been there last season already. I removed the mouse, and since it's the only part i removed/changed, the scientific deduction leads to the conclusion that the mouse was crucial for the bike operation
I appreciate all comments!
Thanks, cheers!
Luk

[babulin2002]

no ideas, huh?
i checked the sparkplugs again, took them out, plugged and put on cylinders and they do spark when engine is turning. i put some gas in the cylinders (not much, few ml at most), and still no result. i checked if maybe there is some short circuiting going on, no evidence for that either. i'm out of ideas. i heard that if sparks are ok and one puts gas in the cylinders engine should start, might not turn for long if there are other issues. mine doesn't even do that. and the funny thing is that it did start 2 weeks ago, so already after spending the winter in the garage.. all fuses seem ok, battery is ok, what else can it be ?!!? btw, it is normal that the batter is drained rather quickly by unsuccessful attempts to start the engine, right? mine is out of juice after 7-8 attempts , each 6-7 sec long.
one other thing, which i am not sure is related/important, is that this winter i keep finding weird white crystal-like (snow like) sediment all over the metal parts of the bike (screws, alternator housing, oil coolers, general engine frame etc). it's not salt, i checked. and it seems to grow back after i remove it, takes days/weeks for that. no other bikes in the garage have the issue. so i thought that could be due to the battery short-circuiting and charging the whole of the bike, which could result in electrostatic accumulation of some substance that is in the air, forming the crystals. i did measure the voltage between the bike and the garage door (big metal sliding door, grounded i guess) and nothing. maybe it accumulates over time so i would have to stop working on the bike/trying to run it, and measure that after a week or so of not touching the bike. but it all slowly evolves into a science-fiction novel
so my best guess for now is that my problem has something to do with electricity. but still i do not see how that would prevent the bike from starting if the sparkplugs spark and there's gas in cylinders. go figure. as usual, any ideas are most welcome!
cheers!
luk

[omg1010]

Hi luk,

does the engine turn at all? Does the fuel pump run when you turn the ignition on (funny ssssssstttt noise from inside the tank)? If you can see a spark it's a good sign. In that case and if the engine turns there must be a fuel problem. If you put fuel in one cylinder or both the engine will not run ...

Maybe a problem with the fuel filter (clogged?), water in the tank, problem with the injection system, injection nozzles ...

And it certainly is not normal that your batt is out of juice so quickly. Suggest you recharge and if that doesn't help replace.

Kind regards
Oliver

[philbytx]

If you do all the normal checking :
Spark?
Fuel Spray from Injectors?
It could we be your Hall Effect Sensor wiring. A known issue.

[babulin2002]

Thanks for the answers guys!
I am also beginning to think it must be the fuel. I have the spark, engine is turning, and i think the pump engages when i turn the ignition. Since i get spark it is not the hall effect sensor, is it? i am not sure what it does exactly though.
I do not know how to check the injectors, that is if there is fuel going into the engine. What do i have to do for that?

And, when i take the tank off, i need some way to clip the fuel tubes, i do not have the original bmw clip though. Is there a good way to clip them with something else, or a nice way to do this otherwise? I wanted to take the tank and look at al the tubes, fuel filter etc.

Thank You, cheers!
luk

[Sven71]

Hi Luk,

I need a bit of help guys
just took the seats & tank covers off and lifted the tank a bit, took the front cover hiding the alternator belt etc).

Did you check the accelerator cabel is in the right position? It might have slipped out of the cup while removing the tank.
.

Is there a good way to clip them with something else, or a nice way to do this otherwise?

Touratec sells these . Be sure to buy the right size, they sell 6 and 8 mm!

Cheers Sven

[babulin2002]

Thanks Sven,
I am going to check the cable just to be sure. And i need to get me some of those clips too BTW, i need the 8mm right? funny, but i never dealt with the fuel lines before, and i do not even know what diameter they are, hence what size clips i need. And my bmw repair book doesn't mention that in any obvious way
Just an update for those interested, i checked the injection and i get fuel in both cylinders. Am not sure about the pressure/amount of it, but at this point i have fuel and spark and air, which should result in explosion So i guess i just flooded the cylinders with fuel by turning the starter a lot. I read i need to open the throttle full in such case to get a lot of air into the engine. When i do that i do get the engine start, at least for a couple of turnovers until it dies. Right now the battery is charging, so i will give it a try when it's ok and hopefully i will get it running. The weather is so nice and i see/hear motorcycles everywhere, normally i would be on the road by this time of the year (and actually all year round, but this winter was too cold, -25 at times etc . When i get it running it's just the valve clearance adjustment along with TB sync and i'm off !
Cheers!
Luk

[Sven71]

BTW, i need the 8mm right?

Indeed 8mm

[omg1010]

Thanks for the answers guys!
I am also beginning to think it must be the fuel. I have the spark, engine is turning, and i think the pump engages when i turn the ignition. Since i get spark it is not the hall effect sensor, is it? i am not sure what it does exactly though.
I do not know how to check the injectors, that is if there is fuel going into the engine. What do i have to do for that?

And, when i take the tank off, i need some way to clip the fuel tubes, i do not have the original bmw clip though. Is there a good way to clip them with something else, or a nice way to do this otherwise? I wanted to take the tank and look at al the tubes, fuel filter etc.

Thank You, cheers!
luk

As for the tubes, just take 2 pieces of hardwood maybe 2-3 cms long. Drill 2 holes at either side of both pieces. Take 2 screws and wingnuts. Put the pieces on either side of the fuel tube, close the screws - and your fuel tubes are closed.

With regards to the injection nozzles there are 2 screws which need to be unscrewed and then you can carefully pull the injection nozzle out. Don't pull too strong on the plastic tube, if need be use a large screw-driver to pry the thing out. You may wan to get yourself the manual which can be found here http://www.carlsalter.com/motorcycle-manuals.asp

Kind regards
Oliver

[babulin2002]

Thank You all for help!
I did check the injectors and have fuel flow. I managed to start the bike today, but the engine dies after 20sec or so of operation. It runs quite rough and irregular, and eventually dies. I had that previous seasons too to a lesser degree, that on startup, after some initial operation the engine would seem to choke a bit and sometimes die. But a throttle flip usually helped in such situations and then after warm-up it would be ok. Now it doesn't dies every time, no matter what i do. Especially if i play with the throttle. Dies even after i did start it 10 times before and had it running 20 sec each time and the cylinders get warm. I checked there's no air obstruction in the intake/filter, cleaned the BBAS etc. Still the same. I noticed that after i take the motronic coding plug out (and reset the motronic accordingly) the engine runs longer before it chokes/dies. Could a blocked exhaust cause this sort of behavior? Maybe i have another mouse in the exhaust pipe Will probably take it apart and check just to be sure.
Plus, engine operation seems to drain the battery, as if the alternator wasn't doing its job. Am not sure if it is connected to the engine dying problem, since it dies also before the battery is drained. Go figure! Looks like i'll be spending a lot of time in the garage trying to find out what is going on. But i am resolved to do it myself, unless it's very serious.
Thanks again for all the input, much appreciated!
Cheers
Luk

[omg1010]

Hi Luk,

does the engine run in idle for some time? Or does it die even in idle? Or does it only die when you turn the throttle? In that case I'd suggest there is a fuel problem. Did you check that the fuel spray increases at the injection nozzles when you turn the throttle? Did you check both nozzles? Depending on the outcome I would suggest you check the fuel filter and/or the fuel pump. Sounds like a fuel filter problem ...

Best regards
Oliver

[babulin2002]

Thanks Oliver!
I can start the bike for a bit in idle, with the choke on (no choke and it dies, too much and it dies too). Initially, when the bike is cold, it dies pretty quickly, the 3-4th time i start it it runs longer (1-2 mins) before it dies. But then, when the cylinders get hot it starts running more unevenly, backfiring a bit and dies and is more difficult to start and run. Any throttle change at any stage usually kills the engine. I did check the injector nozzles and they both deliver fuel, didn't check if it increases if i flip the throttle though. It does sound like maybe a fuel filter might be clogged or something, and i want to check it as soon as i get some parts/tools for that. I also noticed that the battery control light doesn't go out as it should when the engine is running. I guess that means the battery needs to be replaced. Id does drain pretty quickly, and i had it for 3 years. So i need to address that issue too
Cheers
Luk

[babulin2002]

for those interested in the subject:
i found in another post the symptoms i've been having , and least initially, and it seems to be the hall sensor
see here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8716&p=79962&hilit= ... ng+#p79962
or just do the search for : "hall sensor (kinda long)"

i put the bike wet into the garage (normal wash, no pressure devices) and the garage is so crappy it never dried, so the water had a long time to penetrate into wherever it wanted . and the -25 celsius for 2 weeks didn't help obviously. i was getting exactly the short-circuiting noise from below the tank, fuel pump fluctuation (on and off by itself) and the rev meter going up and down, all with just the key turned, no attempt for startup yet.
apparently drying the bike on the sun a for a few days helped, i do not get those symptoms anymore, but still cannot run the bike for more that a minute. so i still need to find out if i blew the hall sensor and need to replace it (ufff!).

[macinnr]

Hi.. I know it was asked in a previous response but did you check the throttle cable position is seated properly? I would double check this. I have fallen foul of this twice when taking the battery out for a charge and the syptoms were exactly the same as yours. If the bike was running ok before you took the battery out then it suggests it is something you've done as a result of this - bikes don't usually go wrong just sitting around unless it's for a very long time. Double check that throttle cable is sitting right - it's easy to get is snagged (Ewan Mc did it on the wrong way round)...

[babulin2002]

i did double-check all the cables, they sit correctly everywhere. i never took out the battery, just disconnected it. i will triple-check the cables today just to make sure, thanks for your input!

[babulin2002]

ok, i changed the fuel filter, checked all the cable and all possible things, charged the battery etc.
the bike behaves as it did before , just starts more vigorously/easier, but dies ~10- sec later.
i have established it is because the hall-sensor problem, described in the thread i put link to above. i had all the same symptoms as described there, noises from under the tank, rev needle oscillating on its own, fuel pump engaging on its own etc on ignition key turned (no start). i checked the ignition coil for resistance in primary and secondary circuits, all in norm. but i read it can be tricky since the coil can give correct values but then go wild when in use due to heating up.
does anyone know if such hall sensor problem can lead to ignition coil damage, or is it simply the coil frying the hall sensor and hence the malfunction? the bike behaves as if the spark timing or related was wrong. starts up ok, and then the engine operation gradually worsens in the sense that it fires more and more irregularly and then dies. choke action is ok, can start with and without and runs with engaged choke just as well, just in higher revs. but the second i touch the throttle it dies. i checked all throttle cables if they are sitting properly, they do. the bike was running ok last season and nothing was changed since then, so all the settings should be fine. so it really is the spark problem. i am looking for more insight if the hall sensor is busted or should i try to replace the ignition coil? does the bike behavior (worsening irregularity etc) indicate that it's hall sensor or coil? i need advice what to do now! thanks!
cheers
luk

[babulin2002]

uff, a new hall sensor costs 242 euro, i was told by my bmw dealer today . i found a way to read the motronic error code with an analog voltmeter, just need to get my hands on one now. digital doesn't do the trick, tried. i will try to establish what the bike tells me is wrong with it, and then will probably end up giving it to the dealer to fix it anyway, unless it's something i feel like doing myslef. there are no hall sensors i can find online , plus a used one can be malfunctioning/break soon again. c@#p, i have a feeling it will cost me mucho to get the bike on the road again. life.

[The Meromorph]

Its usually not the Hall Effect Sensor itself, it's the Teflon coated wires leading to it.
You can find details and a possible source for the wire (much cheaper) on the iBMWR site. http://ibmwr.org/

[babulin2002]

thanks!
read the motronic error codes, surely 1122 and 1133, so both hall sensor error codes all makes sense.

[babulin2002]

just bought a matching used hall sensor on ebay, for 35 euro , 30000 km on it but should be ok. it sure is a better option for me than to buy a new one for 200e at the moment, i have little money but a lot of time . will check it along with the one that is installed in the bike at the moment , and will see if replacing it helps. all evidence suggests it should, the ignition coil seems to be ok, no short-circuiting there as far as i can tell. will update you on the progress, maybe it is helpful to someone that runs into the same thing. cheers!
luk