Question about deal on new R1200R

Post by **phillyboy** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:42 am

Hi folks, I'm new to this board, been lurking for a couple of weeks. I'm thinking of trading my '05 F650CS for a new R1200R.

I've done some test-rides recently, and I REALLY like the R1200R. I'm pretty new to riding, got my F650cs (my first bike) a little over a year ago. Put about 5000 miles on it since I got it. I like it a lot, but I'd like a little more oomph on the highway. I feel like some kind of manic demon on my 650 when cruising on the highway, winding out the big single. When I get on a freeway, I not infrequently look for a higher gear when I get up to 65 or 70. It will cruise at higher revs without a problem, but there is a kind of vibratory lawnmower kind of feel, and I feel like I'm punishing the bike if I'm on the highway for very long. A lot of my riding is in the city and around, but I like to do a couple of longer trips a year. Plus I live in an urban area, so the only quick way out of town is the highway.

I rode an R1150R, and I liked it, but didn't feel totally comfortable with the riding position, I felt like I was leaning on the handlebars too much, and I also noticed the increased weight compared to my CS.

Then I went back to the dealer and tried it again, along with the (last) '07 R1200R they had in stock. I felt really comfortable with the ergos of the R1200R, the position was a little more upright for me, and I felt like I had more room for my legs, compared to both the 1150 and my CS. The bike is smooth and powerful, and felt as maneuverable as my CS. Anyway, I want it. I actually had the feeling that I might miss my CS when I was on the 1150, but not on the 1200.

The R has ABS, Heated grips, not sure about center stand, I think it has it. I offered $10k + my CS in trade, but the best offer I seem to be able to get from this particular shop/sales rep is this; $11100 and my CS out the door.

My 2005 F650 is in good shape, it has the ABS/Heated grip/Power socket/Hazard light package, a Staintune muffler, and a lojack unit installed, is just coming due for the 6000 mi service, and still has the original tires, which aren't totally beat, but would need to be changed to be sold in a showroom. I think that there is also a leaky fork seal, but that should be covered under warranty, which is still good for another year.

I thought my offer of $10k and the trade was a fair one, but I don't really know this business. What do you folks think? Should I shop around more, be patient, or am I passing up a good deal? In a couple of weeks my 6000 mi. service will be done at another dealer that local folks have recommended (even though the shop is a couple hours' drive), so I plan to see what they can do for me also.

Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.

-Phillyboy

hankth · Post by **hankth** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:37 am

Phil, You're always better off to sell your current bike yourself. I know it's a pain, but hey, it's true. Dealers simply don't want to be stuck with a bunch of used bikes to try and sell, so they really make you pay. Good luck, and yes, you will love the R1200R!
Hank

Skippy · Post by **Skippy** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:38 am

I don't know anything about trade in situation in your country(or new prices for the 650 and 1200). I do feel that you should let your business instinct rule and not your emotions on how mutch you like the R1200R. I would make the dealer one final offer and leave it at that, if they don't decide right away say you will give them some time to think about it but don't change your offer anymore so they know your for real. I feel this is the best way to go. Whatever you offer is is of course your descision but try to make an offer that the both of you feel satisfied with(most of the time something halfway would be good like 10500), do considder added cost for maintainance and tires for the 650 if you wait longer holding on to your 650 but know in the back of your mind that you do wan't to get that R1200R sooner or later. Seeing this is at least your 2nd bike at this dealer they should make an effort to meet you at a good price.

Good luck and I hope all works out for you and this deal.

ErikM · Post by **ErikM** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:41 am

I think you need to do some homework. At least you need to know exactly what equipment the bike has and what's the MSRP. Then you need to find out what the stealer er dealer will sell you the bike for without the trade. Then shop his price compared to other dealers. Lastly find out what your bike is selling for used, and try selling it yourself. Frankly the process isn't any different than buying a new car or pretty much any large item.

Post by **mcooperstein** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:45 am

Phillyboy - I'd say the dealer is hosing you. The F650CS is a good bike, and popular. You shouldn't have any trouble selling it and getting top dollar. You can advertise it here, or go to the Chain Gang Website and advertise it there. I just popped over to that site and looked at their classifieds, on the first page is 2003 F650CSA with 18K miles on it for $4000. Surely you can get more then that for your bike!

Mark

Post by **phillyboy** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:03 am

Thanks Folks, your comments are very helpful. I need to sell my bike privately, and take my time and research any new purchase. That way I can probably get the color of my choice, too!
-PB

yim4 · Post by **yim4** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:23 pm

I would agree with the previous comments, I also owned a F650CS before buying the R1200R. You can get at least $5000 for your 2005 model, and your dealer is basically offering you less than that.

I also commuted on the F650CS 50 miles everyday, on the freeway at 80mph for 2 years. The R1200R is definately better for that.

Post by **Caroanbill** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:31 pm

To be blunt, that deal shows customer contempt from the dealer. I'd find another dealer.

BUUUUTTTTT ... here's a better alternative: DON"T SELL THE CS.

I had to consider trading my 2005 F650CS for the R1200R, and the dealer has offered me market price at any time (quite a bit lower than private sale here, but I accpet they're in business, not charity). I'm glad I didn't sell.

The CS still has all the virtues you like in it - and it's the best city bike BMW have ever made (and Ive owned a few). I still use the CS around town and for quick blow-out-the-cobwebs rides. But you know what a great, seriously fun little bike it is. I've found these two bikes to be very complementary - the R12R is sufficiently similar to the CS in ride position etc that you don't feel a big changeover, yet sufficiently different (long-day ability, luggage etc) not to be waste of either bike.

Even if you don't keep the CS long-term, you can look at it this way -

The dealer wants to avoid holding a bike over winter. Provided you can store the bike, the opportunity cost to you is relatively small at current US interest rates - at $4,000 for 6 months the cost in debt (@ 5%) not repaid is about $100 for 6 months. Lost interest is about $40 before taxes. The dealer's costs are higher - he has to either carry debt in his gearing or get a return on his equity: both are higher than the cost to you. So your worst case would be to hold the bike until next riding season and realise a signifigantly higher price thatn you'd get now.

In the meantime, you can go back to the stealer and do a no-trade deal. He wants floorplan stock off his floor and balance sheet, so you go from beinga probelm to being a solution.

worth a try ....

LeonardoNYC · Post by **LeonardoNYC** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:58 pm

Bill makes some really good points. I assume you are in philly and despite the recent 80 degree weather in the North east and all the May Flies that were out in October at the Cleveland Stadium in their battle with the Yanks last week, the riding season for most is quickly coming to a close. I got over $4100 for my ten year old R1100R when I sold in July on ebay. I'd try both ebay and Craigslist..do Craigslist first (next year if possible) and price Craigslist at around what you want to get or a lttle higher. If no one bites there ebay should do really well for you.

As for dealers..call around --except don't call BMW Manhattan..the only deal there is MSRP...no more no less..They do occasionally have some extras available depending on the bike but frankly I'd rather get a good deal on the bike and then go for my farkles when I want them.

I took a train from NYC to Albany to purchase from Max BMW in Albany and they gave me the best deal of the six dealers I called within 250 miles of NYC. The nice thing about purchasing the bike up in a rural area like Albany versus a city area was that I was able to put a good few hundered miles on the bike at highway speeds and attending to the break in procedure of varying engine RPMs, load etc. This would have been near impossible in Manhattan.

Some tips for calling dealers.

-Call during the day time if possible and not during lunch hours
-Ask to speak to the sales manager is they are available. If they aren't it's not necessarily that bad as I lucked out and spoke with a sales person who went to bat for me on the price I wanted to pay.
-Sound very interested and tell them you want the bike "this week" or tomorrow or whenever it is and only call when you are 2 weeks or less from being able to pull the trigger.
-If you are paying cash great, but specify how you will be paying.
-In my experience Motorcycle sales people and managers aren't the best negotiators..some are..but they don't normally have the volume of sales that a car dealership does. So you can sometimes help them in the process. Lets' say you get a quote of A from a dealer that's 200 miles away you can mention to other dealers that are closer to you that quote and see if they'd be willing to match it. Since you are closer to them you're more likely to have the bike serviced from them, but accessories etc. etc.

You should try to negotiate trade in and the new bike price separately if at all possible if you do the trade in route. Get a trade in price, then negotiate the new bike price.

Best of luck in whatever you end up doing.

Byrdguy · Post by **Byrdguy** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Playing Devil's (dealer's) advocate here, The on a trade deal, the dealer doesn't make any money until he sells your bike.(which COULD be a while) He also has to do (pay his tech) whatever service is due and replace whatever (tires) needs replacing to bring the bike up to snuff so he can resell it with confidence that he won't have an unhappy customer shortly thereafter. Also, If your state is like mine, you save some on the sales tax since you only pay tax on the difference. Just some food for thought.
And, no, I'm not a dealer, and have never worked for one. Everyone wants to get the best deal he can, but the dealer is going to make what he needs to make or he can't/won't sell.

Post by **deilenberger** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:45 pm

Gotta agree with Byrdguy..

If the dealer takes the 650 on trade - he has to face both the possibility of sitting on that bike until spring, and the amount of $$ he has to sink into it to make it saleable. If he does the 6,000 mile service and puts new tires on it - he's out about $600 his cost (labor - mechanic still gets paid) and parts. He also has to consider the carrying cost of the $$$ he puts out if the bike doesn't sell until spring.

There is retail and there is wholesale. The two are different things. Yes - you CAN get more if you want to bother selling it yourself. It might not work out to as much as you think - since in some states you only pay the sales tax on the difference between the trade-in and the new bike. That's true in NJ.. and you can walk away from the old bike and never give it another thought. If it blows up on the next owner - it's the dealer's problem, not yours.

I've done both. Sold myself, traded in. I traded in my R1150RS for the R1200R because it made $$$ sense to do it when I considered everything into the deal. The dealer let me de-farkelize the RS. He let me take the bags off the RS. Between what I got selling that stuff, and the savings in sales tax, it would have cost me more to sell it and buy the Roadster outright. And - the dealer is still sitting on that bike.. and winter is approaching. His asking price right now is very close to what he gave me for it in trade.

Work the $$$ - then decide if you want the hassle of selling a bike with winter approaching or not. While a perfect one will bring more than the dealer is offering - you can expect a savy buyer to beat you down on price based on the need for tires and an impending 6,000 mile service.

Dealers aren't all thieves - and it helps us if they actually stay in business. They can't do that giving product away or paying retail prices for a trade-in.

No - I'm not a dealer. But I am staying at a Hampdon-Inn tonight if that counts for anything.

Post by **phillyboy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:35 am

Your thoughtful responses are really valuable, I don't blame the dealer for trying to maximize his profit, they've got expenses to cover, and if they weren't around, there would be no such thing as a test-drive, unless you could find somebody with the bike you want and convince him or her to let you take it for a spin. And being able to ride different models one after another to compare, how would that happen? Probably wouldn't, we'd just have to decide what we want and order it from the factory.

I recognize that they provide a service, thank you people for helping me to recognize some of the ways that I can maximize the value of what I bring to the table, and still the dealer will get his fair share when I buy. I'm not going to cry knowing that I paid a few bucks more than the absolute best deal possible for a given item, but I also want to be treated fairly. Your comments help me to see that doing a trade-in is partly a convenience for me, and that the dealer does take on a certain cost above what I had considered. The difference between our bargaining positions was $1100- not a fortune, but considerable, perhaps I could have gotten the bike by splitting that difference, but since I don't have to go that route, I think I won't. If my offer was clearly a good deal for the dealer, he would have taken it, so it must have been a net loss, or close enough to his break-even point not to be worth doing. Better to just negotiate a decent price for the motorcycle I want, and leave the trade out of it.

If it was just about instant gratification, maybe paying some extra would be worth it, but that's not where I'm at. UNLESS I've just taken a ride on that beautiful new bike- then I just want to keep riding it.

Post by **mcooperstein** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:38 am

Puke on all dealers! (well, most dealers....)

I have no respect for the American "retail" system anymore, and that's coming from someone who worked retail for many years. As far as I'm concerned THE ONLY difference between a retailer and a wholesaler should be the SERVICE they offer. Serivce is how they offset their higher operating costs. Another way they can get around this is with low sales margin and high volume. I'm always amazed when I go visit my daughter in Houston. The auto dealers there cover acres of property for their inventory, and have extremely low sticker prices, usually a few points above their cost. But they sell lots of vehicles! Anyway, for the rest of us, the only service that a dealer can offer to make the extra $$$ you pay worth it, *is* service (excuse the pun), unless you're one of those guys that gets off by a few minutes of 'pampering' by a slick salesperson. Service is the only thing that makes it worthwhile, and if your dealer has crappy service (which many do), then its NOT worth it! For example, I bought a used Mazda Millenia last year. I took it to the dealer for service. The mechanic (not much older then 20 years, and NOT trained) that worked on my car in the course of routine maintenance broke a fitting on my radiator while taking a hose off of it. He knew he screwed up, but rather then admit it to his superior, he tried to fix his mistake using JB-Weld. I travel over 80 miles one way to get to this dealer (I live in the hicks). I never made it home before the car overheated. To make a long story short, after the car was towed back, and we discovered what happened, the service manager had the audacity to try to get me to pay for the repair (basically a new radiator). Why? I didn't cause this problem, my cars age didn't cause the problem, the service mechanic did! In my mind both the dealer and the mechanic were culpable and should have made good on the repair. I had to twist arms before they agreed to it. In the long run, they lost me as a customer. My BMW motorcycle dealer, of which I have to drive 4 hours to get to, is no better. I'll not do business with them either! So what's the point of this rant? Unless a dealer can offer excellent service AFTER THE SALE, there is no justification for using their services, paying high prices for their products, getting krappy UNFAIR trade in on your vehicle.

Ok, I havent had my morning meds yet, I'm sure you can tell!!

Philly, you *can* sell your bike and get top dollar, I have no doubt. I'd buy it if I had the money, I love the CS, as much as I love my R. You might have to wait till spring, but if you are in the northern US (are you in Philladelphia? you never said where you live..) then you probably won't get much riding in on a new bike anyway, you might as well wait out the winter.

Mark
--------------------
member #3 since 2001

Post by **phillyboy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:04 am

mcooperstein- you did wake up twisted somehow didn't ya! I hope you've had your coffee and/or whatever and you're feeling a little better. I definitely hear you. Sorry to hear about your bad car/bike experiences. I've worked quite a bit of retail as well, and let me tell you that the experience did not leave me feeling warmer toward the 'system'. There are precious few people in retail businesses who recognize that they are in a 'service' industry and who actually want to provide service to people. Just as many people who do all kinds of jobs are more interested in cashing a check than in actually doing what it is that is supposed to justify getting it. The American system is corrupted by greed and corporatism where every sales result must be higher than the last. The god of growth must be exposed for what it is- greed and mindless expansion- at the cost of our well-being and the planet's.

If I implied that I bought my F650 at this particular shop, let me say that this is not the case. I picked up the bike with 900 miles on it in North Carolina. If I had purchased it at this dealer, I would definitely have expected a better trade-in deal, and pushed harder for what I thought was fair. Not that I intend to settle for less than what I think is fair now.

I do really like the CS, and if it was reasonable for me to keep two bikes, I would. I'll see what this other dealer can do in terms of a trade, they have a much better reputation around here with riders/owners than the dealer around here. If they can't do something that sounds reasonable to me, I'm going to get the service done, continue to enjoy the bike. Perhaps sell it privately next Spring.

hirsty · Post by **hirsty** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:33 am

Patience is a tricky skill to master, and I'm nowhere near personally... There is also a running joke on this board that everyone who tests an R1200R ends up buying one, and it gets truer every week seemingly!

I wouldn't rush into a deal on the bike that you're not 100% comfortable with, particularly if the new bike isn't totally in-line with your dream spec / colour etc etc - you will most likely have it a long time & may come to regret not waiting for the perfect one. Supply will improve steadily & perhaps some of the new-release premium will have started to wear off over the winter?

Having said that, it's only money

Nice problem to have though. I'd probably stick with the 650 til 'the right bike' comes up or until the itch to change becomes unbearable!

Byrdguy · Post by **Byrdguy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:29 pm

Phillyboy, it's not like you don't have a great bike to ride now. Have patience and enjoy the F650 a little longer and the right deal will come along. It's good that you're doing your homework and it will pay off. The longer you wait, the more of them (R1200R) will be out there to choose from and deal for. Good luck and ride the whels off that F650!!

bmwk100 · Post by **bmwk100** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:10 pm

Byrdguy wrote:Phillyboy, it's not like you don't have a great bike to ride now. Have patience and enjoy the F650 a little longer and the right deal will come along. It's good that you're doing your homework and it will pay off. The longer you wait, the more of them (R1200R) will be out there to choose from and deal for. Good luck and ride the whels off that F650!!

Easier said than done. Once you get the bug, patience goes out the door.

hass · Post by **hass** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:59 am

I always trade my bikes in. And take a large loss (especially the last two times when I only had the bike for a year!).

However, I just can't be doing with the hassle of selling myself.

Byrdguy · Post by **Byrdguy** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:09 am

Sometimes, you take a beating selling a bike (bikes) yourself and should have traded to avoid the time and hassle. (don't ask how I know this).

Post by **famousperson** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:36 pm

I traded my nicely set up '03 HD XLH1200 Sportster for a nicely set up '07 R1200R. The difference in the two local dealers' quotes was $4000! Obviously I went with the guy with the better deal.

I knew the MSRP of the R + the accessories I wanted, and I had a range of prices for the Sportster from eBay. I figured what NOT going through the hassle of selling the bike myself was worth to me, and traded instead. I figure that overall, I ended up getting the system bags and the windshield free, plus saved $350 in sales tax (sales are taxed on the after trade price in PA).

See what your current bike is worth by looking it up on eBay. Figure out if you really want the hassle of selling it yourself for a few hundred more than the dealer will give you, then see what the dealer has to say in January when the snow is on the ground!

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