neutral question

[dd]

hi.

there is a big hill i like to go down in neutral.

when i try to shift back into gear at speed, the shift pedal clicks against something, and doesn't seem to to want to engage a gear (of course, the clutch is pulled in while i do this). if i shift it hard enough, it will engage, but the bike "doesn't seem to like it."

if i stop the bike, it then shifts easily.

does anyone know why this is?

this happens even if i rev the engine to synch the engine speed with the road speed.

thanks.
-daniel.

[Boxer]

there is a big hill i like to go down in neutral.

Get a bicycle.

The clutch plates are spinning like crazy even though you are in neutral...
That'd be my guess.

[Lobo1625]

When you go down a hill in neutral with the clutch in two things happen. First off the bike and engine are no longer coupled together so the internals in the transmission 'spin down' Second when you try to shift back into gear, you've got moving gears (from the rear tire spinning the gears via the driveshaft) against slow to stopped gears. You're trying to force the slowed internals to instantly spin back to the speed that the rear tire is moving at.

I think that (and anyone feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken) but while you're in neutral, if you let the clutch out and rev the engine you'll get the internals of the transmission moving and it should ease the transition back into gear. I haven't actually tried this on my R but I have in my truck on occasion.

Of course when you're stopped, so are the transmission internals, so all meshes easily.

[Oilhead]

there is a big hill i like to go down in neutral.

I know that wasn't your question but I think it's a dangerous practice.

[sweatmark]

Get a bicycle.

I'll second that.

If concerned about engine braking and RPMs, then shift up into 5th or 6th and let the motor spin slowly.

[hank]

Don't do it the gain is not worth the pain of wrecking,
(A) Your transmission.
(B) Your bike.
(C) Yourself.

[Brady]

I thought this was a question about Switzerland.....


Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[GJBushman]

Please don't do this. As others have pointed out, this is not a safe practice. When you are in neutral you have lost a good deal of the control of the bike. Control is a good thing. I think your transmission would be happier if you didn't do this also. This is like the statement to the doctor, "Hey doc, it hurts when I do this". Well....

[DJ Downunder]

dd that's a big no no....

Do you do this to save fuel?...just kidding...

I live on a hill and sometimes roll down in neutral..hit the starter once I'm away from home (if it's a very early start and not want to wake the neigbour's)..and by this time I'm up to speed and can not get the bike into gear without a loud brrrr-clunk..or coming to a stop first...I always come to a stop now before going for a gear.

DJ

[dd]

1. thanks for your replies.
2. i think the beatings to my head have convinced me that, although the question might be technically valid, my approach to this problem is not.
3. i would like to assure you all that i have a new mantra:

-keep it in gear
-the power helps steer
-a boxer makes me grin from my left to right ear.

-keep it in gear
-the power helps steer
-my silver ghost makes me grin from my left to right ear.

repeat as many times as needed.

cheers,
-daniel.

[CycleRob]

dd,

'I like your signature:
"it seemed like a good idea at the time."

That explains a lot . . . . . and I've used it occasionally as a rational excuse to myself for a bad decision.

About your coasting by shifting into neutral. Not a good idea whether the engine is running or not. Only justification would be if you want to let the engine idle for an extreme heat overheated engine cool-down on a straight downhill (I have done this). Just pull in the clutch while in 6th gear, then when it's time to resume, match the RPM with the road speed and ease the clutch out.

Shifting to neutral for coasting at road speed WILL overspeed the clutch plate, possibly to explosion, and damage transmission gear dogs. From your description, it also sounds like what you were doing.

I suspect fuel conservation as your motivation for going to neutral, so I have a little gem for you. On a steep downhill in 6th gear and closed throttle, our Boxer's use ZERO fuel because the EFI is in "Fuel Cut Mode". It enters FCM when the throttle is closed in any gear, including neutral, at any RPM over 2,000. It remains in FCM as long as the throttle is closed during decel until the RPM drops below 1,800. Listen to your exhaust note on decel and you'll hear (and feel) the idle fuel mixture being restored at exactly 1,800 RPM. BMW's choice to use 100% FC in FCM was an excellent one. Many cars continue to add fuel on closed throttle deceleration, sometimes richer than idle mixture, to "keep the fire lit" in the catalyst so it remains fully functional for emissions. FCM is why downshifting is a fun way to gradually slow to a stop sign and one of the hidden and rare attributes that adds to the wonderful character of our bike. Now you know it's also averaging in 1,000,000 MPG while the throttle is shut in FCM.

[Arbreacames]

Shifting to neutral for coasting at road speed WILL overspeed the clutch plate, possibly to explosion, and damage transmission gear dogs.

Could you elaborate on that? I see the input shaft speed to be between that of the engine (clutch engaged) and zero (clutch disengaged), and output shaft to be the same factor of wheel speed as with gear engaged. How can one overspeed a clutch plate? Besides, dd says that he is rev-matching. If done correctly, second gear should slide in as easily as any normal shift.

I would do it like dd if I
1) had to be inconspicuous near my prospective in-laws.
2) absolutely had to save an ounce of fuel on my way down a very long shallow mountain (engine breaking slows you down too much).
3) wanted to test my residual ABS brakes after shutting the engine off while riding.
4) ...
5) ...

[CycleRob]

3) wanted to test my residual ABS brakes after shutting the engine off while riding.

Pull in and hold the clutch, then do your test. Unless the Motronic needs neutral and 0 speed. Then you gotta stop the bike.

How can one overspeed a clutch plate?

That's easy. Do something like this:

when i try to shift back into gear at speed, the shift pedal clicks against something ((ouch)), and doesn't seem to to want to engage a gear (of course, the clutch is pulled in while i do this). if i shift it hard enough, it will engage, but the bike "doesn't seem to like it."

Key word there: "at speed". Shifting into neutral at 1st or 2nd gear speed, coasting downhill gaining speed to possibly 60PH, then shifting into 2nd gear will require the RPM's of 60MPH in 2nd gear while double clutching quickly to "match" the component speeds. Not understanding the RPM + double clutching quickly concept (very common and not a real crime) is what I got out of his difficulty in getting it back into gear.

This is an extreme case, but if you are going 80MPH, pull in the clutch, quickly shift down 5,4,3,2,1 . . . . you just overspeeded the clutch and in the process likely damaged the transmission. At that speed, the transmission will sequentially speed up the input shaft (=clutch plate) by crunching into the next lower gear until the clutch is spinning at what 80MPH in 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and finally 1st gear would be. BOOM!

[Arbreacames]

if you are going 80MPH, pull in the clutch, quickly shift down 5,4,3,2,1 . . . . . BOOM!

Got it! I was still thinking of a gearbox in neutral. Thanks.

[CycleRob]

Rereading the original post, it's not clear that a (high) road speed -and- still being in neutral . . . . is what caused concern that something wasn't right and why dd posted for advice. Neutral is between 1st & 2nd. If there were another neutral between 5th & 6th (HA!), we wouldn't be having this discussion.