countersteering question

[motowally]

Let's say you're approaching a long right-hand sweeper. You countersteer left and your 1150R leans to the right into the right-hand curve.

If you're going at a moderate speed for that curve, the bike is properly set up, the pavement is smooth and dry - in other words, if there are no unusual handling issues - do you continue to countersteer all the way through the curve, i.e., steer very slightly left to maintain the lean all the way through the right-hand turn?

Or does countersteering simply "destabilize" the bike for the time that it takes to tip into the corner? After the initial countersteer, do you steer normally, with the front tire pointing straight in relation to the chassis of the bike, as you continue around the turn?

[Boxer]

When the bike is rolling, countersteering IS normal steering.

[popgazer]

If you're going at a moderate speed for that curve, the bike is properly set up, the pavement is smooth and dry - in other words, if there are no unusual handling issues - do you continue to countersteer all the way through the curve, i.e., steer very slightly left to maintain the lean all the way through the right-hand turn?

The best advice I have received on this question is: look ahead plot yourself a long IMAGINERY line along the road, and try follow it ? The bike will spontaneously follow it.

From a physics point of view, the first counter-steer flicks the bike. Then, because of the shape of the tires, the bike keeps trying to stand up, which is why you need to apply a small c-steer to keep it on your line.

[Simon D]

Think about it for a moment: countersteering lays the bike over. The harder you push the bar the quicker the bike "tips in" to the corner. If you continued the pressure on the bars after the initial lean in then you would simply fall over
What actually happens is that you countersteer the bar, the bike tips in and then you "catch" the angle of lean you need by releasing the pressure and then "hold her steady" with a neutral bar imput. It's one of those things in life that is easier to accomplish than to describe. It's also one of those things that becomes easier with practise, practise, practise
Above all keep the shiney side up and the rubber side down. Simon

[motowally]

Thanks. Just trying to settle a "discussion".

My friend believes you have to hold a countersteering angle all the way through a corner or else the bike will stand up.

My intuition is that once you've countersteered into a lean, which makes you turn, you can hold a neutral steering position until it's time to roll out of the curve.

The lean plus centrifugal force plus the grip of the tire's contact patch are all in balance through the curve so there's no need to steer one way or the other unless your speed changes, you want to change your line, etc.

[yjleesvrr]

The confusion results from what one means by "neutral steering position." Next time you're going through a turn, let go of the handlebar in the middle of the turn (carefully) and see what happens.

In order to continue through the turn, you have to continue applying force to the handlebar or else the bike will stand up.

[Packrat]

Think of your spinning tires as a gyroscope. They like to stay spinning in their axis, eg. vertical or horizontal. When you counter-steer, you apply the force on the front or rear of the wheel. Gyroscopic effect causes this force to be applied 90 degrees in the direction of rotation. When you turn the handle bars to the right (push left hand), this exerts a right force on the front of the tire and a left force on the rear of the tire. The effective force is (90 deg) a left force on the top and right force on the bottom of the tire and hence a lean to the left. All other forces left alone, the gyroscopic nature of the spinning tires is to return vertical. Some force will continuously need to be applied during the turn to counter the return to vertical.

It was funny when I first applied stuff I learned from flying to the MC. The old timers here on the bikes had not realized the counter-steering principle and never understood that they had been doing it all along. Everyone here was swerving all over the street while they experimented with this.

[dallara]

No offense, Folks...

But Simon D is the closest to being "on track" (no pun intended... ), but actually nobody has hit it yet...

Rather than I trying to explain it to you, perhaps it is better to allow one of the best engineers in motorcycling lay it out, Tony Foale. Besides, he does a whole lot better job of it than I...

Just click here:

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Balance/BALANCE.htm

And here:

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Tyres/TYRES.htm

If you want to delve into the subject even deeper, and enjoy the engineering aspect, as well as the physics aspect, and don't mind pretty dry stuff, try:

http://pdmec4.mecc.unipd.it/~cos/DINAMO ... ering.html

and here:

http://pdmec4.mecc.unipd.it/~cos/DINAMO ... fects.html

and here:

http://pdmec4.mecc.unipd.it/~cos/DINAMO ... torque.htm

And finally, most important of all, click here:

http://pdmec4.mecc.unipd.it/~cos/DINAMO ... /frame.htm

It may take a while to wade through it all, but you will find you countersteer to initiate the turn, and actually end up steering into the corner through most of the turn to keep the bike from falling over, and the lean is there to balance out the centrifugal forces... But you cannot ignore gyroscopic precessions, tire camber force, slip angles, and tire self-aligning torque...

Enjoy!

Dallara

[darthrider]

EDIT: Dallara wrote the above while I was writing this. If I'd seen it I would have saved the effort. Consider this post "the short version".



Depends on the bike, tires, road, etc. Mainly tires & steering geometry.

Some bikes need a bit of "negative countersteering" after the intitial lean to keep them in a "neutral" attitude. If you don't do that, they will try to "fall over" into the corner and will...fall over...if not corrected. Or at least try to turn tighter due to the increased lean angle.
In otherwords, after you "steer left to go right" or "push right to go right" and your turn is initiated, you will need to apply some "left turn" countersteering pressure to keep the bike at the desired lean angle.

As far as countersteering being the "only" or the "best" way to initiate a turn...'taint so. It is the most commonly used for sure, but there are a number of others.

My favorite, and the one Reg Pridmore teaches in the CLASS schools, is lower body steering. Over-simplified, to turn left you shift slightly to the left on the seat, lean slightly to the left and push left against the tank with your *right* leg. Done properly you need no steering input from arms-wrists-hands at all. It is smooth, accurate and relaxing.

NIETHER of these, or any other techniques, require "hanging off" which should be saved for the track. It is not actually even a turning technique but allows the bike to turn in a more vertical attitude, thus "saving" more cornering clearance.

There are other techniques for intiating lean which results in turning. I'm sure someone will jump into that. This is a great subject to start arguements with...hopeful we won't this time.

[wncbmw]

Once again, so great input from knowledgeable people. With lots of technical footnotes linked!

A riding buddy who has been to many riding schools told me simply, the countersteering initiated the turn and if you got the angle right, very little input is required to keep the line, until you are ready to establish the next line.

[BobFV1]

Once again, so great input from knowledgeable people. With lots of technical footnotes linked!

A riding buddy who has been to many riding schools told me simply, the countersteering initiated the turn and if you got the angle right, very little input is required to keep the line, until you are ready to establish the next line.

Yes - that's what they taught, and we drilled, at the California Superbike School, one input and then just hold 'er steady through the turn.

One thing I don't get in the OP:

Let's say you're approaching a long right-hand sweeper. You countersteer left and your 1150R leans to the right into the right-hand curve.

When you say "You countersteer left" what you mean is you push the right handgrip. Right? Just checking...

[motowally]

Bob, yes, that's what I meant. Turn left to go right, ie, push the right grip forward.

[rdsmith3]

My favorite, and the one Reg Pridmore teaches in the CLASS schools, is lower body steering. Over-simplified, to turn left you shift slightly to the left on the seat, lean slightly to the left and push left against the tank with your *right* leg. Done properly you need no steering input from arms-wrists-hands at all. It is smooth, accurate and relaxing.

Darth

I have far less experience than you and many others on this board. However, I have read about Keith Code's experiments with a No Body Steering (NO BS) bike, and he refutes the idea that there is body steering.

Here is a long version of his experiments to prove this:

http://www.2wf.com/articles/stories/AB4 ... 371990.asp

Here is a shorter version:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoor ... 77436.html

[Pat]

I was thinking about this yesterday..... "counter-steering".....
what a surprise, after twenty years of riding, to find out that's how I was steering my bike(s)?!?!?!

When I had my locomotive of a bike, a Ducati GT900, I noticed that I underwent quite a work-out when putting her through the paces. I knew something was going on that I didn't understand, but I simply couldn't figure it out. You see, I realized that when I was riding aggressively through the sweepers at high speeds,
I was pulling on the upper bar.... ?!?!?! Just didn't make sense to me, I referred it to having to "muscle my bike."

Imagine my surprise when I was asked if I "counter-steered" my bike..... to which I replied, "SURE! I sometimes use that technique..." And then I hadda break it down, I had to humble myself, and I simply hadda ask, "What the hell is counter-steering?"
D'OH!

It was during this conversation (that took place three years ago), that I realized I was in fact counter-steering that locomotive of a Duc' through turns. However instead of PUSHING the "lower bar" through a turn, I was PULLING the "upper bar"!!!!?!!!! But I was counter-steering none-the-less!

Sure, ya initialize a turn via the act of counter-steering, and by way of choosing yer line..... "little input" is further needed to continue tracking your bike; the physics that STILL effects your bike is as a result of counter-steering albeit with little effort now on your part.

[darthrider]

Bob -
When I took Reg Pridmore's school several years ago he was just as adamant that lower body steering (LBS) is far superior to counter steering (CS).
It became a major ego battle between Reg and Keith Code who taught that CS was not only superior, but the *only* way to initiate a turn.
Then he "invented" the 'No BS Bike' to prove it. Only problem is that thing is a parlor trick. The reason people can't ride it is because they follow his 'rules"...ride a certain speed and hold on to the dummy bars that are fixed to the frame. Of course you can't turn it!

Here's how to ride that contraption, "No BS"...get up to about 30-40 MPH, don't touch *either* of the bars and use LBS or pressure on the pegs or any of several variations of LBS. You *will* turn. And do it totally without CS!

Watch the video of the stunt rider at the world stunt finals on another thread. You will see him doing some amazing steering control techniques with hands totally OFF the bars.

No one, not even Reg, is saying that CS does not work. I hear he and Code have shaken hands and declared a truce and even Code is no longer claiming LBS does not work.

For anyone willing to learn and use both techniques, they will find therer are times when one or the other is better. Niether is "best" and certainly not "only".

I have ridden 30 miles in the Texas Big Bend with no hands...just leaning and/or pushing against the tank with my knees & thighs. No big deal. If Code's old dogma was true I would have ended up in the first ditch.
What I have found for me is that a combination of LBS & CS in a ratio of ~80/20 works best. For me. At low speeds it's 100% CS. At very high speeds it's 100% LBS but these are not absolutes and I "mix & match" often. When using LBS I often throw in a quick CS adjustment to miss an obstacle, or would use it to swerve to miss a car or a dog. It is quicker than LBS but I find LBS is smoother and more accurate.

And I frequently throw in peg pressure for a little "English". I often use all these simultaneously, they are not at all mutually exclusive.

Sometimes for fun I use what I call "push steering"...I don't now if there is an actual name for it. It's basically a MX racing technique where you keep your body vertical and "push" the bike down towards the pavement with the bars into an extreme lean attitude. I can't think of one instance on the street where it is *better*, it is just different.

The downside is it makes the bike lean over further for any given corner radius/speed and therefore "uses up" cornering clearance far faster than other methods. It is the opposite of "hanging off" which is actually not a turning technique at all but is used to keep the bike more upright in a turn, thus "preserving" more cornering clearance for even more extreme lean angles. Hanging off does lend itself to LBS since you are already pulling/pushing the bike to lean into the corner. Many road racers are heavily using LBS but are only aware of the CS they are doing and would tell you that is how they are turning.

On my Super Motard it is a blast to do "push turns" just for fun and I think on that bike it may be the quickest way to initiate a turn. You see the SM racers doing that with their foot stuck out where the front axle is to keep from running over their feet with the foot pegs. I've had that happen twice and it ain't no fun, Bro!

It doesn't matter what Keith Code says, it doesn't matter what Reg Pridmore says and it *sure* doesn't matter what I say.
Learn the technique(s), go give it a fair try out and *you* decide.
I will say this about learning LBS...it is more natural and intuitive than CS but is actually harder to learn. I was riding a Ducati 900 Super Sport when I took Reg's course. Turns out the Duc loved LBS even more than most bikes but when I first started learning it, it felt very slow, stiff & "wooden". It took a good while for it to become quick, smooth, accurate and natural.
There are several other significant benefits to it as well.

Bottom line, for me at least, is to learn, study & practice anything & everthing that effectively controls your motorcycle. You will be a better rider, a safer rider, a smoother rider and even a faster rider if that is your thing.

[Dragonmojo]

The way to do is to be.

[dallara]

But Darth...

There is only one problem with all this LBS vs. CS debate - They're both right, and they're both wrong!

Now follow me here...

Sure, you can get a bike to turn, and countersteer, with your hands off the bars. It's easy. Don't believe me, but want to prove it?

Just jump on a bicycle, get up a head of steam, take your hands off the bars, and turn it with what you and Reg call LBS... But when you do it, pay *CLOSE* attention...

*WATCH* the front end very closely. As the bike starts to lean the direction you want to go you will see the front *COUNTERSTEER*, all by itself!!!

Interestingly enough, it will first coountersteer, then go neutral, and if you keep leaning, go positive steer... Why?

Because it has to.

Read those http://pdmec4.mecc.unipd.it/ links I have above in this thread and you will understand why. It is simply a function of the geometry of a single-track two-wheel vehicle with positive rake and trail.

As the bike begins to lean toward the inside of the turn, the steering head is pulled to the inside, too, but the gyroscopic precession of the rotating front wheel resists the change in its direction, and it has a natural physics tendency to try and rotate about its steering axis (about the steering axis is the direction of least resistance...) in the direction that will allow it to remain most upright (it is "gyroscopically" trying to maintain its position and orientation in space over time due to rotational inertia). To do this it *HAS* to turn in the countersteering direction, which drives the front tire "out from under" the vehicle, just as you would if you initiated the countersteer, and started the turn...

As the bike leans, the center of mass begins to take on a new direction in a vector away from the original, and as the front wheel is drug back in line with the direction of travel, both by the rest of the mass of the vehicle and by the natural self-aligning torque of an air-filled tire, the gyroscopic precession is overcome and the rotating wheel trys to return to equilibrium with the direction of travel and mass of the vehicle, working through the magic of rake and trail to drag the contact patch back in line...

This is when the front end will appear to go back to neutral.

If the lean continues past a point where the mass leaned into the turn starts to fall out of balance with the centrifugal force of the arc of the radius, then the the steering head attempts once agin to drag the steering head out of equilibrium...

When it does this it begins to again pull the front wheel out of its gyroscopic equilibrium, which the forces of precession try to fight, which turns the front end *INTO* the turn, essentially trying now to "countersteer" the bike back upright and into a state of equilibrium again relative to the direction of travel.

This is when the front end appear to turn into the corner...

Now, if you keep leaning the front end will turn in more and more trying to drive the vehicle back to equilibrium, but at some point all of this will overwhelm the slip-angle coeffcient of friction available to the front tire, and *WHAM*, you fall down and go boom!

(This is also another reason why over-aggressive "hanging off" in a corner can often lead to "losing the front end", BTW... as such antics keep dragging the front end in a more positive steering angle to maintain equilibrium, finally pushing the front end and losing grip with the front tire due to excessive slip angle - and so, why so many squiddies who like to try and look like big time racers fall off on the low-side so much... )

So, Keith is right, and so is Reg... And they are both equally wrong. Of course, neither one of them is much of an engineer...

One point, though... The heavier the single-track vehicle, or the faster one travels (or a combination of both), the less effective the LBS method will be... Which is why the stunt rider you mention can do those full lock hands-off turns... BTW, take a close look at which way his front wheel is pointed when he is doing those hands-off tight circles... Teh front end is in postive-steer, not countersteering, and not neutral...

Back to mass and velocity and LBS... Why doesn't it work as well with heavier vehicles and faster speeds?

With the heavier vehicle your body mass is a smaller percentage of the total mass of the vehicle, thereby it is harder for your mass to drag the steering head over and alter the direction of the vehicle...

And at faster speeds, the inertia of the vehicle resists changes in direction more fiercely.

And if you combine the two, well...

And that's why it is easy to demostrate all the above effects with a bicycle. With it your mass is far, far greater than the mass of the vehicle, so it is easy to overcome the vehicle's inertia.

Anyway, that's why I mention in the earlier post that one could not forget about the factors of gyroscopic precession, tire camber force, slip angles, and tire self-aligning torque.

Isn't geometry and physics *FUN*!

Cheers!

Dallara

[Kevin Markwell]

Physics aside, I have always approached turning a MC like turning an airplane. Your power inputs do the most to stabize you altitude throughout the turn. The countersteer is the initial and dominant input determining direction, like the ailerons. The body positioning, leg pressures and later fine handlebar adjustments are the trim. Sometimes you input some prepratory trim before the turns, sometimes you dial it in in the middle. For quick turns you don't have time, or don't bother with the trim.

Unlike Dave, I probably use an 80/20: CS/LBS ratio, which is more like the aileron/trim tab contributions to a turn. I would really like to learn how to make quick and accurate lower body turns, but when I try I feel like I am trying to fly with the trim tabs. It can be done over wide expanses but it just seems more gradual than I like. I'm sure there are experienced pilots who after take off could fly across the country without using the ailerons but I'm not one of them.

Just offering this as a different perspective on a well worn interesting topic.

Kevin

[wncbmw]

Interesting reading all of this. I guess I also use a combination of the techniques. If sight distances are good, I tend to steer "by the seat of the pants" moving my head/chest inside (but not hanging off ), cutting the apexes closer to the centerline. But in uncertain situations, where I delay initiating the turn, I tend to use counter steering to turn quicker, once I can see.

Of course, I have a GS buddy who is 6'5" and whips sport bikers all the time, sitting bolt upright and torquing those GS bars through the turns! No body lean but lots of bike lean!

[darthrider]

"Excuse me Sir, but do you have the time?"

Darth: "Sure, it's 2:15."

Dallara: "Step 1 - Dig hole in earthen substance identified as 'Ground' with steel shovel."
"Step 2 - Locate and remove shiny, yellow metallic substance identified as 'Gold ore'."
"Step 3 - Build hot phenomenon commonly known as 'fire'." ....."
"Step 4..."

So, Keith is right, and so is Reg... And they are both equally wrong. Of course, neither one of them is much of an engineer...

You say that like it's a *bad* thing!

Isn't geometry and physics *FUN*!

Umm...no.


Maybe if you explain it to me again in more detail I'll catch on.
(And I'm sure you will!)