Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

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deilenberger
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by deilenberger »

BoxerSteve wrote:
motoracer8 wrote:Sometimes I think motorcycle makers including BMW go looking for answers when no one asked the question.
It was probably the corporate bean-counters who asked the question, "what can we do to reduce expenses?". The fuel strip is probably quite a bit cheaper to produce than a more traditional (and reliable) float-type arrangement. In the long run it probably isn't cheaper since it has proven to be unreliable and many have been replaced under warranty. But bean-counters (and humans in general) don't usually think much about the long run.
I doubt if the cost is much different - it was probably a lapse in corporate memory caused by someone retiring. As was mentioned, BMW tried the same sort of measurement device (whetstone-bridge) on the early K bikes. It worked equally as well, and after 3 years of making bikes where the fuel level was a guess, they went back to a float design.

The fuel strip has a lot going for it in theory.. no moving parts, able to fit odd shaped tanks (which is probably why the Roadster hasn't gotten a float) all solid state. Engineer's dream solution, an engineer who wasn't around in 1983-1986.

I'm heading to the NHTSA website to report it. Problem with reporting these sort of things on that website is - it's possible to report something in several different categories, and apparently government employees aren't good at correlating one failure with another identical one if they're reported in a different failure category. Once I sort out where I think it might best be reported, I'll post back here.

To the chap who has "30000km" (I'm assuming kilometers - so that's around 18,650 miles) - my first one lasted two and a half years and about 30,000 miles. I'm now at 62,500 miles and my 4th replacement one (meaning 5 have failed in total) failed over the weekend. It had been in the bike since about April of last year. 10 months and about 11,000 miles. Luckily since my first failed under warranty, and BMW has a 2-year parts/labor warranty on any replaced part, all of them have been free.. but I can imagine getting really really pissed off if this wasn't the case.

I don't think it's asking too much for BMW to have a working fuel gauge.

BTW - I've dissected a number of failed ones and did some elementary tests on them. The foil strip with resistive evaporated metal paths on both sides is not failing. The resistances measured at the top of the strip where it goes into a junction to the wires to the plug are what is expected. The wires from the plug into this junction aren't failing, they are actually fairly high quality teflon coated wires. The plug isn't failing. What seems to be failing is the junction between the wires and the strip inside the epoxy lump. Since I haven't succeeded in getting one of the lumps apart, I can't say for certain what the failure mode is, but given the symptoms, I'd suspect corrosion due to a faulty seal on the lump, or gasoline wicking down the actual wires from the plug area.

Does ethanol make it worse? Dunno - I have seen some reports of failed fuel strips on bikes ridden in countries where corn-squeezing isn't polluting the fuel supply, so I don't think that's the root cause of the failure. I asked one of the mechanics at my dealership while my last one was being replaced if BMW had any plans to address the failure - he said "Sure - keep replacing them.." It's not as if they don't know there is a problem. The NTHSA action will help bring it to the attention of someone high enough in the food chain at BMW to say "Fix it.."
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by deilenberger »

Here is what I filled out (after selecting the on-line form found at: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleCo ... ndex.xhtml)
  • VIN: Entered my VIN#
  • VEHICLE: BMW R 1200 R 2007 (this is on the drop down screen once you enter BMW.. it's down a ways..)
  • APPROXIMATE DATE: I entered the date it first happened (as the instructions say to.)
  • CRASH: No
  • FIRE: No
  • FATALITY: No
  • VEHICLE MILEAGE: I put down the approximate mileage it first happened at
  • SPEED: I put down 65 for good luck.
  • AFFECTED PARTS: FUEL/PROPULSION SYSTEM <-- this is the important one. This is how the complaints get lost.
  • TELL US WHAT HAPPENED: Fuel gauge stopped responding, leading to running out of fuel while moving. This is a common failure on many bike models from BMW from 2005-2013. I have had this happen 5 times so far, and each time the fuel level measuring strip in the fuel tank was replaced. This is an unsafe condition since loss of engine power from running out of fuel can be quite dangerous on a motorcycle.
I then filled in my personal info.

My suggestion - if you've experienced the failure - take 10 minutes to fill in the form... it might just help, and it can't hurt.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by Bob Ain't Stoppin' »

Don, I should think a dremel used carefully could trim away the epoxy to reveal the junction area. DId you try that?
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by Newportcycle »

deilenberger wrote:
BoxerSteve wrote:
motoracer8 wrote:Sometimes I think motorcycle makers including BMW go looking for answers when no one asked the question.
It was probably the corporate bean-counters who asked the question, "what can we do to reduce expenses?". The fuel strip is probably quite a bit cheaper to produce than a more traditional (and reliable) float-type arrangement. In the long run it probably isn't cheaper since it has proven to be unreliable and many have been replaced under warranty. But bean-counters (and humans in general) don't usually think much about the long run.
I doubt if the cost is much different - it was probably a lapse in corporate memory caused by someone retiring. As was mentioned, BMW tried the same sort of measurement device (whetstone-bridge) on the early K bikes. It worked equally as well, and after 3 years of making bikes where the fuel level was a guess, they went back to a float design.

The fuel strip has a lot going for it in theory.. no moving parts, able to fit odd shaped tanks (which is probably why the Roadster hasn't gotten a float) all solid state. Engineer's dream solution, an engineer who wasn't around in 1983-1986.

I'm heading to the NHTSA website to report it. Problem with reporting these sort of things on that website is - it's possible to report something in several different categories, and apparently government employees aren't good at correlating one failure with another identical one if they're reported in a different failure category. Once I sort out where I think it might best be reported, I'll post back here.

To the chap who has "30000km" (I'm assuming kilometers - so that's around 18,650 miles) - my first one lasted two and a half years and about 30,000 miles. I'm now at 62,500 miles and my 4th replacement one (meaning 5 have failed in total) failed over the weekend. It had been in the bike since about April of last year. 10 months and about 11,000 miles. Luckily since my first failed under warranty, and BMW has a 2-year parts/labor warranty on any replaced part, all of them have been free.. but I can imagine getting really really pissed off if this wasn't the case.

I don't think it's asking too much for BMW to have a working fuel gauge.

BTW - I've dissected a number of failed ones and did some elementary tests on them. The foil strip with resistive evaporated metal paths on both sides is not failing. The resistances measured at the top of the strip where it goes into a junction to the wires to the plug are what is expected. The wires from the plug into this junction aren't failing, they are actually fairly high quality teflon coated wires. The plug isn't failing. What seems to be failing is the junction between the wires and the strip inside the epoxy lump. Since I haven't succeeded in getting one of the lumps apart, I can't say for certain what the failure mode is, but given the symptoms, I'd suspect corrosion due to a faulty seal on the lump, or gasoline wicking down the actual wires from the plug area.

Does ethanol make it worse? Dunno - I have seen some reports of failed fuel strips on bikes ridden in countries where corn-squeezing isn't polluting the fuel supply, so I don't think that's the root cause of the failure. I asked one of the mechanics at my dealership while my last one was being replaced if BMW had any plans to address the failure - he said "Sure - keep replacing them.." It's not as if they don't know there is a problem. The NTHSA action will help bring it to the attention of someone high enough in the food chain at BMW to say "Fix it.."

All good points. One would hope BMW has a team working on the issue, some times the simple solutions are the best. Then again, BMW hasnt got where they are by not pushing the engineering department to inovate. I'm not saying that owners should be ones fronting the testing not at all, these things should be vetted before release to the public. I'm curious just how prevelant the issue is, what percent of units sold are experiencing this? I agree NTHSA reporting is the best method of getting the issue documented by someone who dosent have a dog in the fight and maybe eventually addressed. I would think that each failure should be reported as a separate incident instead of a note in the remarks, you brought up the thing about government employee's not me. You gotta like a mechanic with a sense of humor like that.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by deilenberger »

Newportcycle wrote:All good points. One would hope BMW has a team working on the issue, some times the simple solutions are the best. Then again, BMW hasnt got where they are by not pushing the engineering department to inovate. I'm not saying that owners should be ones fronting the testing not at all, these things should be vetted before release to the public. I'm curious just how prevelant the issue is, what percent of units sold are experiencing this? I agree NTHSA reporting is the best method of getting the issue documented by someone who dosent have a dog in the fight and maybe eventually addressed. I would think that each failure should be reported as a separate incident instead of a note in the remarks, you brought up the thing about government employee's not me. You gotta like a mechanic with a sense of humor like that.
For how prevalent the issue is: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread. ... strip-poll - it's a very unscientific poll I put together as best as one can with Vbulletin's poll tool. Going by the numbers reported - over 50% of the people reporting have experienced a fuel strip failure, and many have experienced multiple failures.

And the way I suggested filling out the form DOES make it so each bike is reported as a failure. It's an interesting thought to report every failure (I have 5..) in a separate report though. That might help get their attention. :)
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by hjsbmw »

deilenberger wrote:It's an interesting thought to report every failure (I have 5..) in a separate report though. That might help get their attention. :)
May be a pain to enter but seems to only make sense. If someone had more than one strip fail then that should count more than once. It does not seem to be the bike's fault but the strip's.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by Dr. Strangelove »

That's the point, it's easy to enter the info, but Don is right about putting it into the proper category. There are choices and multiple systems can be entered. I entered fuel system and electrics. I think it may be editable after entry so that we all point in the same direction regarding system affected.

Once the entry is made it appears that it is reviewed then formally entered into their database. A confirmatory email is sent back to you:

Thank you for filing your safety-related complaint via our Web site or our Vehicle Safety Hotline. The ODI Number listed below will be a direct link to your complaint as soon as it is ready to view. Please allow at least two business days for approval and processing before trying to view your complaint online. You will then be able to view it and search any associated documents.

Your Confirmation number (ODI Number) is: 1049XXXX
Your complaint information will be entered into the NHTSA vehicle owner complaint database. NHTSA technical staff review this information to identify potential safety problems. While you may or may not be contacted by a NHTSA investigator to clarify the information submitted, all reports are reviewed and analyzed for potential defects trends. Also, the NHTSA complaint database provides valuable information to other consumers and to manufacturers.

If you have any questions regarding this complaint, please contact ODI:

By phone: 1-888-327-4236 Monday-Friday, 8:00AM to 8:00PM Eastern
TTY: 1-888-424-9153
Have your ODI Number available.
(Spanish-speaking operators available)

By e-mail: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/contact.cfm
Indicate your ODI Number in the contact form.
Thank you,

Office of Defects Investigation (ODI)
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)
U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT)

Did you know you can receive real-time information about safety recalls? There are two options:

Recall notification via email: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/subscripti ... furl=email

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I'd like to thank all of my fellow members supportive of this effort, especially Don E, who see this as a perhaps solvable and REAL problem and have joined in to make it better for EVERYONE on this forum.
We all have a dog in this hunt.
Support and cooperation is what drives this forum.

John
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by websterize »

Just logged my 2009 strip failure with NHTSA. Tally-ho, Don!

For range and fuel, I'm a trip meter kinda motorist. Is there a way to deactivate the fuel strip with the GS911 diagnostic tool? I wouldn't mind if it failed again, but the yellow warning lamp is really distracting (and slapping black tape over it isn't an elegant fix).
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by Dr. Strangelove »

websterize wrote:Just logged my 2009 strip failure with NHTSA.
Thanks!

And, as Don points out, it's important to use the proper placement for the complaint

FUEL/PROPULSION
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by websterize »

I ask again: Is there a way to deactivate the fuel strip with the GS911 diagnostic tool?
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by omg1010 »

John (and others),

first of all let me point out that I am not affiliated to BMW in any way. I have read all your posts and arguments and it seems to me this is a problem related to North America (and maybe some other parts of the world - except Europe) for whatever reason. I am active in a couple of forums and back here in Europe I have not heard about any widespread failures of the fuel indicator. Maybe because this is not a common problem over here or because people have not reported about the same in various forums.

Anyway since it seems/appears to be a problem of greater number I would support the idea of reporting the same to the local authorities and/or consumer protection organizations. BMW is notorious for ignoring / not dealing with problems unless a certain degree of pressure is mounted either through the authorities or (what we would do here) the 2-wheel press.

BMW needs to address a problem and produce a fix (even if that would be related to one continent only) ...

Brgds and good luck with this matter.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by atractaspis »

omg1010 wrote:John (and others),

first of all let me point out that I am not affiliated to BMW in any way. I have read all your posts and arguments and it seems to me this is a problem related to North America (and maybe some other parts of the world - except Europe) for whatever reason. I am active in a couple of forums and back here in Europe I have not heard about any widespread failures of the fuel indicator. Maybe because this is not a common problem over here or because people have not reported about the same in various forums.

Anyway since it seems/appears to be a problem of greater number I would support the idea of reporting the same to the local authorities and/or consumer protection organizations. BMW is notorious for ignoring / not dealing with problems unless a certain degree of pressure is mounted either through the authorities or (what we would do here) the 2-wheel press.

BMW needs to address a problem and produce a fix (even if that would be related to one continent only) ...

Brgds and good luck with this matter.
Oliver
I have noticed something similar. I also check out the German forums regularly and originally did most of my research on this bike on German sites, and did not come across the "fuel strip failure" warning until I started looking at the American forums. Just wasn't sure if it was simply not discussed or a regional issue with fuel strip failures.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by curmudgeon »

I just filed a NHTSA/DOT report using the suggested parameters for my `08 R1200R. Mine failed a few months out of warranty: the gauge showed three bars and the warning lamp didn't come on but I ran out of fuel on the interstate. After that incident my strip worked intermittently for a few weeks but eventually failed so that it indicates a full tank all the time (at least the low fuel warning lamp stays off). My dealer indicated that BMW might participate in the replacement but the part hadn't really been updated so I figured a new strip would just fail again. From what I've read here and elsewhere it seems BMW hasn't put much effort into this issue, hopefully the DOT complaints will light a fire under their butts. Until BMW comes up with a permanent solution I see no point in multiple replacements and I wouldn't trust the current design anyway. For the time being I'm perfectly happy calculating fuel consumption via the trip meter but at some point it would be nice to have the bike work as designed.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by BoxerSteve »

websterize wrote:I ask again: Is there a way to deactivate the fuel strip with the GS911 diagnostic tool?
I don't think so. There was a discussion on the GS911 recently over on adv, you might find interesting:

GS911 - What does it really do?

It is a diagnostic tool, it does not allow you to reprogram the bike's operating system.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by Newportcycle »

omg1010 wrote:John (and others),

I have read all your posts and arguments and it seems to me this is a problem related to North America (and maybe some other parts of the world - except Europe) for whatever reason. I am active in a couple of forums and back here in Europe I have not heard about any widespread failures of the fuel indicator. Maybe because this is not a common problem over here or because people have not reported about the same in various forums.

BMW needs to address a problem and produce a fix (even if that would be related to one continent only) ...

Brgds and good luck with this matter.
Oliver

Oliver brings up an interesting point which I believe has been raised before and that is the fuel. I wonder if this is the only variable in this equation? Ethanol has created its share of problems with fuel system components.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by websterize »

BoxerSteve wrote:It is a diagnostic tool, it does not allow you to reprogram the bike's operating system.
Thanks, Steve. Very informative. There was this from the BMWMOA forum, too:
What the GS-911 is not:
A service technician. As discussed above, the GS-911 is only reading codes stored in your bike's computers, which they have generated on their own based on the conditions that they have detected at some point in the past. What those fault codes mean, and what their actual underlying cause is, is up to you to determine. (Or your qualified BMW dealer's technicians). Some codes are self-explanatory, as you'll see in this walkthrough. Some may not be. If in doubt, you should clearly consult with qualified help.
A bike-computer programmer. It is very frequently asked whether the GS-911 is capable of performing the coding tasks necessary to add new equipment to a bike, or replace defective electronic equipment, such as Alarm systems, instrument clusters, failed ZFE or BMS-K computer units, tire pressure sensors, and so forth. As of this writing, these devices have to be properly "introduced" to the other computers on your bike using BMW's own diagnostic computers and software before they will function, and these are available only to the dealer network. The developers of the GS-911 have stated fairly clearly that these tasks are beyond the realm of uses this device is designed for.
If I could disable a tiny yellow bulb, and not rewrite firmware, I'd buy the pricey GS911 just for the insurance, and it wouldn't matter whether BMW fixed the strip. (No thanks, black tape.)
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by Dr. Strangelove »

If I could disable a tiny yellow bulb
Ah ha, you have the "good" failure of the strip, the one that says you're out of gas when you're not.

I have the bad failure, the one that says I have gas when I don't!

failures just the same.

Reports are now beng filed on bmwsporttouring.com also.
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by hjsbmw »

Newportcycle wrote:Oliver brings up an interesting point which I believe has been raised before and that is the fuel. I wonder if this is the only variable in this equation? Ethanol has created its share of problems with fuel system components.
To my knowledge, ethanol is also used in Germany. Maybe there are other differences in how they refine their oil? Maybe it's all just a coincidence?
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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by omg1010 »

Ethanol is indeed used here in Europe. But with a max of 5%. In 2011 Germany tried to raise this to 10% and forced the industry to produce fuel with 10% ethanol. However there was much doubt over E10 may causing engine problems and secondly the fuel efficiency of E10 turned out to be slightly less (hence no real money saver) and thus consumers simply did not buy that stuff. Late last year this whole project was scrapped and thus only the 5% mix is still the name of the game ... =D>

Any idea how much percentage of ethanol is contained in NA fuel? Could also be sulfur or other contaminations.

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Re: Filing DOT complaints regarding the fuel strip

Post by hjsbmw »

omg1010 wrote:Any idea how much percentage of ethanol is contained in NA fuel? Could also be sulfur or other contaminations.
"Up to 10%", whatever that translates to in reality. There are some stations that offer non-ethanol fuel, but we don't get to choose at the pump as it seems you do.
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