BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

I have about 5k miles on my 2003 R1150R....just 1k short of the 6k check. This evening while coming back from work, I noticed that the clutch engagement was not too abrupt but enough for me to notice the difference.

Is the friction zone on the R razor thin? Or is it just my bike?

On checking the fluid levels on the bike...I see that the clutch fluid is very low....it barely shows up at the bottom of the indicator window. I guess my question is....."How badly have I damaged the R by not topping up the clutch fluid?"

The front brake fluid is also low but not by too much. I'd love to top up the clutch fluid and perhaps bleed the system. I'd prefer to do the work on my bike myself.

I've found excellent instructions written by CycleRob but the images don't load up.

(http://home.mindspring.com/~jabrooks/te ... clerob.htm)

Is this link (http://www.beachbus.net/BMW/diy/Bleed_Clutch.htm) accurate for the R?

I'd appreciate any suggestions or comments you could send my way. Thank you.

Brake and clutch levels on any machine should not diminish markedly unless you have a leak. Check that as well. As far as damaging anything - Nope! Low fluid level in a clutch system will simply mean that the clutch won't work. A bit of extra wear on the meshing gears perhaps, but it won't damage the clutch.

Proper clutch fluid level is low in the window. DO NOT TOP OFF

The level rises as the clutch wears.

Others more knowledgeable will explain...

Promethean - I'm no clutch expert, but the BMW has the first hydraulic clutch I ever had on a bike and it could be that you just became aware of the mushiness - after all, you haven't ridden the bike very many miles at 5000. My advice on the clutch hydraulic fluid is the same as your long-term investments, check it by don't check it too often, because it is doubtful it will change much between service intervals unless you notice something dramatic, like a big leak. I took my RT in at about 10000 miles, right before the long trip, with similar symptoms to yours and the service guy told me "TADT", so I went on the trip, was absolutely fine, and I stopped wrrying about it. Don't worry, be happy, is my advice, but I admittedly don't know what I am talking about on this except from my limited personal experience.

Oh yes - CALLING DJ, COME IN DJ - may we have a picture of a man "bugggering an R", to accompany this thread?

Chained between two rocks are you?

Bike still under warranty? A friend had similar problems with an 02 - we bled the system and out came all kinds of black crud. Turned out that the seals in the slave cylinder had gone. Now did someone use other that the required fluid to cause the seal s to go? We dont know - but the dealer replaced all seals in the master and slave cylinders under warranty.

You know your Greek Mythology. I was thinking more like the fire bringer.

Bike just got out of warranty so I'm going to have to do the work myself. I had bought it used in June 05 with 1300 miles on the odometer.

Now that I looked at the reservoir in daylight....there's virtually no fluid there. The clutch engages when you barely jab the lever and I guess it's at the end of its extension. Changing the clutch travel adjustment dial doesn't affect where the friction zone begins/ends.

I haven't seen or noticed any leaks off the bike. The initial service was performed by the local BMW dealer in PA while the previous owner briefly owned it. So, I do not know if anything other than DOT 4 fluid was used.

Any suggestions or comments are appreciated. Thank you.

Acacia wrote:Chained between two rocks are you?

Bike still under warranty? A friend had similar problems with an 02 - we bled the system and out came all kinds of black crud. Turned out that the seals in the slave cylinder had gone. Now did someone use other that the required fluid to cause the seal s to go? We dont know - but the dealer replaced all seals in the master and slave cylinders under warranty.

That was my post above. Had to log in twice.

Make sure you look at the owner's manual for proper fluid check procedures. Which stand you are on and the way the bars are turned makes a difference.

I did.

patdown wrote:Make sure you look at the owner's manual for proper fluid check procedures. Which stand you are on and the way the bars are turned makes a difference.

That fluid has gone somewhere. That should be your concern.

I am not sure if there was a problem with seals at that time. You might want to check with the dealer. You might also have a belated warranty claim if it is.

We bled my friends, but as the seals were shot at the slave, it did not last but several weeks - and changing that out is a 'big' job. The dealer changed seals in the master, slave and the clutch plate. I did not see the work.

Lets us know how it goes.

Promethean, DO NOT RIDE YOUR BIKE! The problem you have is a faulty clutch throwout bearing. That bearing sits in the clutch hydraulic slave cylinder which is attached to the back of the gearbox. The bad bearing destroys the seal in the slave cylinder and leaks clutch fluid into the clutch. That is were the missing fluid went. If your clutch was not slipping yet, you are lucky. When enough of the clutch fluid gets onto the clutch plate it will slip and you will need a new clutch. Besides you are stuck and not going anywhere. To replace the clutch cylinder/throwout bearing unit is not a terribly big job. Replacing the clutch is! DAMHIK

Paul,
Thanks for the warning. I'll be careful on the way back home from work. Then it stays parked till it is fixed.

Can I ask what the primary reason for such a failure is? Hamfisted use or faulty part?

I'll search the web & the manual to find instructions to replace the bearing unit. Failing that, could I PM you?

Thanks again, Paul.

Paul Mihalka wrote:Promethean, DO NOT RIDE YOUR BIKE! The problem you have is a faulty clutch throwout bearing. That bearing sits in the clutch hydraulic slave cylinder which is attached to the back of the gearbox. The bad bearing destroys the seal in the slave cylinder and leaks clutch fluid into the clutch. That is were the missing fluid went. If your clutch was not slipping yet, you are lucky. When enough of the clutch fluid gets onto the clutch plate it will slip and you will need a new clutch. Besides you are stuck and not going anywhere. To replace the clutch cylinder/throwout bearing unit is not a terribly big job. Replacing the clutch is! DAMHIK

It is just a failed part. Nothing hamfisted about it. The bearing, hydraulic cylinder, seals, are all one unit and you replace it as one part. All you need extra is a gasket that goes between the part and the gearbox housing. I have not done the job myself, but I think you have to remove the swing arm to get to it.

Frank,
Oddly enough, the reason for asking about the ceramic clutch was curiosity. I felt the clutch start to go last night. This occurance seems to have been just a coincidence.

Thanks for offering me a ride on your R. It looks unlikely that I will be able to visit you this weekend and take you up on the offer....tempting though it is. I've been riding the bike exclusively since my car died about a month ago so my mobility is limited at this time. I'll be picking up my new Accord on Monday. Till then, I need to fix the bike to be mobile or get a rental.

Thanks again for the offer. I really appreciate it. I'll give you a shout sometime to see if we can get together for a ride.

FGanger wrote:Abhijeet,

Even if your Penelope is under the weather, you are still welcome to come and take my bike for a ride. I'm less than 60 miles from you and close to the Illinois Toll way or US 41.

Now I think I understand why you are thinking about a ceramic clutch. When I first bought my bike (under 500 miles), my dealer called and told me not to ride the machine. There was some sort of clutch problem with the new bikes and he thought mine was one of the afflicted. BMW was replacing the clutch plates on the bikes. I thought it would be an excellent insurance policy (having a ceramic clutch), especially with BMW picking up the labor. Alas, mine was not one of the bad ones.

This was before I bought my pop-up camper; my wife and I were looking at them though. We were going to wait until the motorcycle show that winter.

Frank

Okay. Now that my panic attack is over....I've begun thinking a little rationally.

I just went through all the documentation that I had when I bought the bike from the previous owner. I just moved from PA so I don't have everything unpacked yet....when I mentioned that the bike was out of warranty.....my feeble mind was playing tricks on me.

I'm a pack rat...not organized but I never throw anything away. It turns out that I still have 1.5 months left on the warranty. Woo Hoo!!!

I had performed an oil change last month and have receipts for the filter from the local BMW dealer and for the oil from the Advance Auto Parts store.

So...am I right in assuming that BMW will cover most if not all the cost of the repairs?

While the R is at the dealer's, I think I'll have them look at the rest of the bike to see if there's something else that may be going.

Is there ANYTHING that the warranty does not cover?

Any suggestions and comments are appreciated.

With the bike under warranty and only 6.000 miles, it should be fully covered under warranty. As the bike is in warranty, make sure the dealer checks that the clutch disk is not contaminated by clutch fluid. If there is any trace, have it replaced. BMW usually balks at replacing the actual clutch parts under warranty, but at 6K miles it should not be a problem.

I dropped off Penelope at the dealer's last night.

The Service manager mentioned that the clutch seemed to be disengaging partially when shifting from neutral to first and that without throttle input it died a couple of times on him. This didn't happen when I rode it home on Friday.

I can hope that this is a warranty issue and will be resolved to my benefit...in any case, this is a good argument to learn to work on my bike beyond the usual fluid changes and valve adjustments und so weiter.

I'll post updates to let you guys know what happens....in case someone else is looking for information on a similar problem.

first let me say I've seen Paul Mihalka on other forums and he seems to know his stuff...I can't say that about everyone. I haven't seen any bad information come from him...when he speaks...listen.

second, I have an '02 RT...and saw enough spline issues ect... on the net, that I tore mine down at 14,700 miles last winter to see for myself what the story was. I found a weeping slave cylinder that compromised the bearing (it's not exactly a throw-out bearing...more like a thrust bearing that sits in the piston...a traditional TO bearing is at rest and only turns when the clutch is disengaged...BMW preloads this bearing...which is the piston travel...and this mouse bearing turns all the time under the piston return spring pre-load, and when the clutch is disengaged, it's under the increased load of the diaphram spring...pretty much a critical point). I opened up the slave and found it worn egg shaped...anyway, the hydraulic fluid got into the bearing grease (tho nothing noticable from the outside or with the performance of the works), and I replaced the $86 slave. I'll tear it down again this winter for another look-see. (I tore my brother's '99 S down after that and found all his stuff was good...so it's not every mc that has this problem)

one of two things is happening...either the BMW grease is suspect...heating up the bearing causing problems with the slave seal, or more likely, the slave seal leaks and compromises (ruins) the bearing lube...I lean towards the latter.

I bought a demo bike ("new") in June, and did the tear-down in Jan. in what I thought was still just under the 3 year warranty period (I understood it to be from date of purchase)...came to find the warranty period was started the previous Dec. when the first couple miles were put on the bike. The dealer would not cover it under warranty saying it was 2-3 weeks out of warranty...although it was obvious to me the failure occured during the legit warranty period...so expect that same treatment from the dealer. They don't like it when you do your own mechanics...and I'm not sure all dealers exibit a high degree of mechanical skill.

because this thrust bearing is under constant load, it's possible it can seize completely and spin the slave piston...that's not what I saw on mine, but it's still a possibility.

That's not to say BMW is a bad bike...I like it just fine...but in this particular instance, I would have used a small tapered roller for that bearing under these conditions and some superman hi-temp hi-stress moly grease instead of the BMW $12/tube glorified vaseline.

Although my input splines were good ( I generally ride conservatively like an old man) I did see some minor wear in the clutch disc splines...maybe from my occassional "see what this thing will do" or possibly from the demo period before me...and it's this female spline that eventually involves the transmission male spline. I used the reccomended BMW grease. and when I open it up again this winter, I'll have a better opinion of the issues that seem to pop up more than I'm comfortable with.

lastly, there's a lot of "the sky is falling" knee-jerk reactions that come out of these forums from folks who don't know what to do when a machine acts up...and a whole lot of "ride it like you stole it" folks who abuse them then sell them and move on...wallowing in their bravado...these are not the folks you want to listen to. A failed slave or bearing at 6K in my mind is a legit warranty issue...dispite the denial you're likely to get. There's nothing wrong with the basic BMW machine, but there are some legitimate issues...so neither expect the whole "BMW surpreme thing" nor the "this is a piece of crap" knee-jerk thing. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle...but everything can be fixed...the only issue is the $ involved with dealing with the structure in place, or bypassing much of it by doing it yourself. These bikes are crochetted together pretty intricately and possibly scarey to most folks to tackle, but if you can get over your fear and stop being afraid of the "BMW nazi warranty police", it's all really pretty straight ahead, logical, and doable by common folks at home.

the low clutch fluid level is an indication it's weeping into the bearing...and you need a new slave cylinder...while it's opened up, check the clutch disc for contamination, and the input splines (both male and female) for abnormal wear...this involves extra steps, but you may as well find it early than have it come back to bite you later if there is an issue. Also, being a dry disc, there's debris...clean it pristine and lube the taper and contact points. Some folks rave about the Honda Moly60 grease...I haven't personally used it, but there's probably something to it...I'm personally not sold on the BMW reccomended grease myself. I'll know better when I see what it looks like after 1 years use.

Modre,
You make some interesting points and most of them are quite accurate. Please understand that my responses below are not intended to aggravate.

Again....I appreciate the response and the info you've posted to this thread. This insight will prove valuable when I get a better understanding of the mechanicals and have gone through the shop manual. Yes...I finally located mine on a CD somewhere.

Paul's assessment of the failed slave cylinder seems to be quite logical and may possibly be the case. I have done enough research on my problem to see his name and posts pop up on other forums several times and to learn that he's been around bikes longer than I've been alive. So, I would not discount the information or opinions that he comes up with.

I realize that the bike is above all ... a mechanical device like any other and is prone to component failures. Any bike can fail influenced by factors that range from compromises made during the development & design to materials used and the way it was used or abused. BMW and any other make of bike may have their failings and strong points. No doubt about that.

I'm one of the people who have the "sky is falling" reaction when there is a mechanical problem with the bike. It's probably because I've been riding bikes (not just BMW) just over a calendar year....and I haven't the experience or the knowledge or been around people who work on their own vehicles. That's will change over time. The possibility that one can fix their own bike...did not even enter my mind till I started hanging around this forum. I'm grateful to the good people who post enough information for "newbies" like me to learn....hopefully some day I shall return the favour.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the warranty is in effect till the end of November...let me see what the dealer comes back to me with. That should set the stage for whether I continue to let them do the repairs or start taking the bike apart on my own.

> the warranty is in effect till the end of November... set the stage for whether I continue to let them do the repairs<

during the warranty period you pretty much have to trust their dictates...cause they hold the big club...and this is pricey stuff...I religiously followed the same course...til I started finding crap...for instance...bike was bought in June '02, I've been riding since mid-60s...and working on machines (and I mean complete rebuilds from mowers to buses... engines and transmissions across the board, and custom fabrication way off the scale)...anyway I hit a deer that dropped me on the left side in Sept. of the same year (after 35+ years of hoonish behavior both on and off the road...I thought I was immune to surprises like that)...and had the "experts" do the $4K fix...and I tippy-toed around BMW for your reasons...when I did open it up for a TB sync/valve adjustment ect... I found the left head bolts were loose (and yes I know about the one-time use stretchy torque thing)... and the inner pipe shroud was broken...they charged the insurance co and pulled crap shortcuts on me...I also found broken connectors Mickey Moused...these folks are used to pulling the wool over people's eyes...because this is high end scarey stuff and the "normal BMW buyer" is a rich guy who spent his time doing something other than dirt under the fingernails...and I had a hell of a time getting them to stand up for their end. His exact sentiment was "I should have opened it all up immediately after the expert fix to find that"...incredulous...completely contrary to the BMW "don't touch it" voodoo.

Also, when doing the surge gymnastics and getting the endless run-around...I found vacuum leaks on both side rubber connectors between the TB and heads...one was a clamp that was bottoming before it snugged, the other was just a leak...but I redid them both with aviation permatex and straighten that out because you can't do anything with a manometer sync til the basics are right...and they didn't catch it. I also found contrary valve clearances that had more to do with the lock nut changing the spec than wearing surfaces...adjusting valves isn't that tricky, but you have to compansate for the final snug of the lock nut, and do the final clearance check when everything is done...cause it can move...and I know full well what I'm looking at here...it was 1/2 *ssed mechanics.

later, when I did the clutch slave, he swore up and down the bearing discussed above only rotated at disengagement...I have no doubt he has no idea how it works or what he's looking at...thus I don't trust or use their services...too many incidents of dis-satisfaction for me. I hope you fare better...(or maybe aren't as picky)

I'm sure there are top notch people at dealerships nationwide, and my experience is the exception...but everytime I crawled in there on my knees for legit concerns, I got the "we're the experts and you don't know nothin'" treatment...that only goes so far with me.

...and no, I didn't take exception to anything you said...I fully understand. do the warranty thing as expected, and if that goes flat, there's good advice on this and other BMW forums. If I can pitch in with a positive thought to help, I certainly will.