BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

Hey folks,

Sheesh..looks like something else is acting up on my bike and this time it's the transmission.

When shifting down from 4th to 3rd or 3rd to 2nd, the tranny refuses to change gears - it feels like the shift pedal is stuck solid and there's no movement down. After a second pull of the clutch, it snicks into gear. This happens around 1 out of every 3 or 4 downshifts. I've made sure the clutch lever is pulled in completely, the throttle is closed and I'm applying firm pressure, even a solid stomp, on the shift pedal when shifting. The bike's road speed when shifting from 3rd to 2nd is around 15 - 20 mph.

In some ways this resembles Optimus Prime's post about his tranny issues

Tranny is acting up. Any ideas?

Does anyone have any ideas?

Marcus

Every 1 out of 3 or 4 downshifts...that's the way it starts.It'll get worse, how soon? Who knows. Hate to be the bearer of tough news... Spline Lube symptoms to a "T". Upshifts not affected, stiff downshifts, blip the throttle when trying to downshift and it does downshift...Spline Lube.

EVEN if under warranty, BMW is (sometimes) refusing this, as *they say* it's a normal maintenance item. {{Trouble is, they've never published that as FACT. I was really steamed when my '02 did this at 17,000 miles and they declined to fix the bike}}.

Labor, no parts required. Approx. $400, 8 or more hours to do. To get BMW to pop for it requires YOUR dealer to have a good relationship with BMW and yourself. There are DVD's available on some Oilhead websites for the DIY types.

Could be what Baker says...hope not tho.
Take it in 'under warrantee' and see what they say.
I'd be real interested in what they say....I have an 04 also, and just passed 6000mi.
No problems to report at all, but I think I just may do the spline lube thing myself..somewhere around 15k. Because, as BMW told Baker, it IS a normal maintenance item, AFAIC. Any splined/coupled drive system MUST be checked and lubed periodically, I think that is a no-brainer.
What POs me also is that this little tidbit is not published anywhere, as Baker says below. I knew that going in, so my only question is when should I be doing this???
I doubt any manufacturer pays for this 'routine' maint (extenuating circumstances not counted). but at least they provide an recommended maint interval...just like oil changes.
Marcus...please keep us posted.

Marcus wrote: I've made sure the clutch lever is pulled in completely,

I discovered that NOT pulling the clutch all the way made a nice snick each time both up and down. I don't have an explanation as to how it works mechanically, but it seems there is a clutch sweet spot that makes all the difference.
Has anyone else noticed the same thing!!

I use two fingers on the clutch almost all the time now...so I can't pull it all the way because I'd crush the other two fingers...it works great.

DJ

Marcus wrote:This happens around 1 out of every 3 or 4 downshifts.

That's exactly how it started last year october on a nice trip in France in the hills... It rapidly got worse. Ever tried to do hairpins downwards when the bike won't downshift from 4th? I did. Not a lot of fun really.

Back home I visited my dealer and they recognized it directly as a known problem. Some U-shaped clickety-click thingy was 0.1% too thick or something like that. They replaced it under warranty (bike is Feb-2003) with a better engineered part. Bike is fine now.

I hope it's a 'problem' that can be addressed inexpensively and easily......

The California Highway Patrol are actually instructed NOT to pull the clutch lever in all the way..... so it can't be dismissed as simply urban legend.

Just because I went mega-miles with nary a prob', doesn't mean that your's isn't real. I was given an explanation why I needn't worry about spline lube, but I also got some inside information about those who can be likened to America's "Affirmative Action hires".... working the assembly line at BMW.

But I gotta ask, you're not trying to downshift all the way from 4th, 3rd, 2nd, consecutively while coasting at low rpm's, are you?

But I gotta ask, you're not trying to downshift all the way from 4th, 3rd, 2nd, consecutively while coasting at low rpm's, are you?

Good point Pat....my bike won't let me do that...although most Jap bikes will...I've never worried about it.

DJ

DJ Downunder wrote:

But I gotta ask, you're not trying to downshift all the way from 4th, 3rd, 2nd, consecutively while coasting at low rpm's, are you?

Good point Pat....my bike won't let me do that...although most Jap bikes will...I've never worried about it.

Mine lets you do it at speeds above 30 MHP, but no way at slow speeds.

popgazer wrote:

DJ Downunder wrote:

But I gotta ask, you're not trying to downshift all the way from 4th, 3rd, 2nd, consecutively while coasting at low rpm's, are you?

Good point Pat....my bike won't let me do that...although most Jap bikes will...I've never worried about it.

Mine lets you do it at speeds above 30 MHP, but no way at slow speeds.

So does mine. I roll up to a Stop sign, still in gear, and pull in the clutch for the last 100' or so. Then consecutive downshifts, which 'click' positively when they engage, while coasting those last 100', probably 20mph tops.
Am I messing something up???

Aw man.........

I didn't even stop to think it could be a spline lube issue - the bike only has about 4500 miles on it!!! I'm planning on taking to a dealer sometime this week and have it sorted out. I'm pretty crushed right now because MY bike is flawed. 20 years of Japanese bikes, cheap ones too, and never a single major problem. Wait a minute....... there was that POS '85 Yamaha FJ600 that ate alternators and died at least once every month for a whole year while I was in college. Kept me broke all year too.

About my gear shift style, no I'm not shifting all the way down from 4th to 1st while coasting unless it some sort of emergency manuever.

Do you really think it could be a spline issue with a bike that's still so new? It's an '04 and I thought BMW knew enough about the issue to make sure the splines were lubed.


Marcus

I know, I know, I've been sitting exactly where you are today, faced with the diagnosis that your bike needs something...drastic, in my opinion, as the thing has to be nearly dismantled to fix, and then there's the nagging questions, is it put back together correctly?..here's my suggestion, from having walked this path.
One thing to try before you pull the transmission off for the grease...thoroughly bleed the clutch. If you have any clutch issues, it might imitate the spline lube diagnosis. It never hurts to have clutch fluid changed out, it starts degrading the day it's installed. But as you have stiff downshift only symptoms, my money is on the spline lube.
As your bike really is near new, I'd start negotiations with the dealer on getting BMW to pay for this. Stay calm with them. Just discuss how unhappy you are that something is wrong with your new bike. If they just stonewall you, ask for their BMW area representatives phone number. Tell him your story. You love your new BMW< this is so expensive< like that. They should come through for you. I was stonewalled, totally, but then my bike was a month past the 36 month warranty, and so they had me..cold..I had recently won a bit at the casino...I traded the POS in for a new POS..Now, I love my 2 spark R1150R, and have been riding the tail off of it. But the spline lube issue is part of the deal on these engines, wether they are in our R's, the GS, the RS, RT< whatever. My personal opinion is that they shouldn't need this operation done to them except every 20,000 miles or so, some guys don't ever do it, and some around 50,000 miles, so once in the lifetime of the machine. The frequency of this occuring, the stiff downshifts, is all over the board. It has been discussed online ad infinium that a slight machining error at the transmission/engine mating split could cause one bike to need a spline lube every 10,000 miles while another never needs it. In practical terms, there's no way to "improve" that mating split (what we'd call a "parting plane" in the machine shops around here) so...we each have a bike that is what it is, whatever it is.
Get your splines lubed and ride happily ever after, there's really nothing at all wrong with your R1150R a dab of hi-moly grease won't solve. It's just getting to it is a major chore, nothing more. As young as your bike is, I can't think of why they wouldn't just do it for you, should be the right thing to do. But BMW is tightening the screws on all the "Good Faith" type warranty work they used to dole out, and that's a policy shift that's probably here to stay.
Just hope we don't have final drive issues..

I am not much of a mechanic and I'm only in my 3rd season of riding....but here's my '04 R experience with this.

I had a little difficulty downshifting from 3-2 and from 2-1 (more often 2-1). It wasn't major and not all the time either, but definitely there. Since taking it in for the 20k kms (12k mile) service it has been better. It seems the issue (so far) was idle speed. Before taking it in it was (warm) idling at 950. I mentioned this and they adjusted it to where the manual says it should be, 1100 (+/- 50).

It took a little getting used to this idle (on stops/starts and with heavier loads), but the downshift issue has vanished. At times there is still the 'clunk' sound/feel going from 2-1, you can feel it engage, but the relectance to get to 1st seems to have been alleviated by the idle rev adjustment.

Folks, the bike has 4500 miles on it. This is a warranty issue. I can't believe that BMW on its worst day would say that a $400 spline lube is a normal service procedure every 4500 miles when the recommended oil change interval is 6000 miles.

Marcus, please let us know what the dealer finds out. It may be something simple. How long have you had the bike?
peter '73 R75/5 (splines get lubed every 120,000 miles whether they need it or not) '04 R1150RA (18K miles and still a smooth shifter)

also familiar to me...

It happende out of waranty (On my former '02 Roadster, the famous fasted blue one.....)

I had more problems with my bike. Got so pissed off, I bought a new one.... , a Rockster

It happened to me when downshifting 4>3, about 80 km/h. Had driven about 30.000 km. My dealer thought he could repair it, no costs for the parts, but couldn't promisse it wouldn't happen again.

It should be a clear warranty fix, I agree. I'm merely relaying my experiences with the issue. I think it's somewhat possible that if the thing got a thorough going over, clutch bleed, set the valve lash, it gets a proper TB sync, idle set, switch to a synthetic transmission oil if it isn't already, MAYBE it'll clear up. I'm a gambler, not necessarily a good one mind you, and my bet is on a dab of molygrease fixing this fellow's transmission woes, fixing it right up. It's the "getting to it" that causes the heart to rend.

I spoke to the Service Advisor at a dealer and he said the symptoms sound very much like a spline lube issue. The bike's under warranty so it shouldn't be a problem having it taken care of.

The bike is going in this weekend.

I'll admit that I'm looking at other bikes (not BMW) but there are very few comfy roadsters and even fewer that come with factory saddle bags. The Multistradas are interesting but I'm very sceptical about reliability. Just looking at the poorly fitted fairings on the bikes makes me wonder what the engines are like.


Marcus

Glad they want to just take care of it. You haven't ridden for thousands of miles with it getting worse all the while, so you've done no damage. Grease those splines, you'll think you got a new transmission again. Your bike will be a pleasure to ride, just in time for the Fall riding season. Qualified BMW techs won't have any problems at all knocking this out, and you'll be riding happily ever after. Congrats, it's not near the Big Mess it feels like, trust me. Lots and lots of Oilheads have needed some spline lube, there's a world of experience with this issue, and it hasn't hurt your bike any. Remember they're not replacing any parts...just cleaning up a set of sliding splines that connect the clutch hub to the transmission input shaft. Getting that all cleaned up and well lubricated with the latest BMW Hi-Moly grease will sort this and the ordeal is over.
Keep us posted on how this deal turns out for you. It's actually very surprising a bike needed that at the mileage you mentioned, but now you'll be good to go, and you saved $400.

I just got a call from Morton's about my bike (it's been there for a little over a week). They took it apart and discovered the clutch splines were bone dry with traces of rust !

The drive shaft end is okay but the clutch disk will need to be replaced. Everything then gets doses of grease. BMW will be taking care of it under warranty.


Marcus

This spline issue isn't new. What is perplexing, at least to me, is the accumulted mileage variance of the affected bikes before this issue arises. This bike only has 4,000 plus miles while others may have 60,000 miles. Did someone on the assembly line forget to grease the spline? Probably not. So why does this occur on low mileage machines?

Also, is this common among other shaft drive bikes of other manufacturers?