BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

Could I possibly ask a favour of the forum?

I'm gathering data for a modification to my Rockster: specifically I want to replace the Tokico front brake calipers with either Brembo or Nissin calipers. I know that BMW used Brembo calipers for some considerable time before switching to Tokico midway through production off the R259 series. The so-called 'EVO' brakes were (as far as I can make out) merely a switch to 325mm diameter discs - but I'm not sure if there were bikes with 325mm discs and Brembo calipers.

If you have Brembo calipers, could you check the diameter of the disc, and the gap between the mounting bolts? The gap between the mounting bolts should be measured from the center of each hole (the center of the TORX hole in the bolt head will be the same position).

My reason for this is that I am continually finding the Tokico calipers have poor seals that do not keep out the corrosion and grime and thus cause the pistons to stick (and thus drastically reduce braking effect). The last set of seals I fitted only lasted about 13,000 miles before needing to be replaced - they should be lasting a lot longer.

Hi

I will check and measure mine when I get home. I am considering six pot calipers from a uptodate sports bike.
I would also advise you to look at them and clean / service you calipers every 4/5000 miles or less if your riding conditions are more adverse. I find all things mechanical last much much longer if you keep them regularly mainted. Think of a motorcycle like a really really hot woman, it will only perform if you maintain it properly. Ignore it and it becomes belligerant

Hi there,

the distance between the 2 mount points (M8) is 65 mm and the R1150 models shared a 320 mm front disc. Like many other models from the R1200 series for example the R1200R/ST etc. Hence you could try to get hold of brake calipers for the R1200ST (like for example these on egay Germany which are brembos ... http://www.ebay.de/itm/BMW-R-1200-ST-Br ... 2c6c9967d2)

Brgds
Oliver

TheHeretic wrote:Hi

I will check and measure mine when I get home. I am considering six pot calipers from a uptodate sports bike.
I would also advise you to look at them and clean / service you calipers every 4/5000 miles or less if your riding conditions are more adverse. I find all things mechanical last much much longer if you keep them regularly mainted. Think of a motorcycle like a really really hot woman, it will only perform if you maintain it properly. Ignore it and it becomes belligerant

Oddly - the first 80,000 miles of the bikes life I had no issues with the brakes whatsoever - it's only the last 10K or so where I've had this issue - maybe the 110 mile a day commute in the bike's early life had something to do with it?

The brake calipers are known to be really good. They rarely fail. Under extreme conditions (race track for example) they show signs of fading. Thats why I got hold of a set of golden brembo P4 calipers which have been adapted to fit my R1200S (I think they originally came from the Aprilia Mille). That has been a limited production especially for the BMW powercup. These calipers use the single brake pads of the BMW S1000RR. They brake like hell and show no signs fading at all.

If you have problems with yours I suggest you flush the fluid. Clean the brake pistons and properly bleed the circuit.

Brgds
Oliver

omg1010 wrote:The brake calipers are known to be really good. They rarely fail. Under extreme conditions (race track for example) they show signs of fading. Thats why I got hold of a set of golden brembo P4 calipers which have been adapted to fit my R1200S (I think they originally came from the Aprilia Mille). That has been a limited production especially for the BMW powercup. These calipers use the single brake pads of the BMW S1000RR. They brake like hell and show no signs fading at all.

If you have problems with yours I suggest you flush the fluid. Clean the brake pistons and properly bleed the circuit.

Brgds
Oliver

Over the past few months I've done a lot more than that:
NEW master cylinder
NEW discs
NEW pads
completely stripped and cleaned the calipers and replaced all seals (including the internal seals)
Replaced fluid numerous times.

The issue is the Tokico calipers and their fair-weather seals.

Strange. Maybe you have a a series with increased tolerances. Anyway if you have done all this then any further online-analysis would be kind of crystal ball reading. If you opt for the brembos I indicated to you which ones to look for.

Brgds
Oliver

omg1010 wrote:Strange. Maybe you have a a series with increased tolerances. Anyway if you have done all this then any further online-analysis would be kind of crystal ball reading. If you opt for the brembos I indicated to you which ones to look for.

Brgds
Oliver

Cheers Oliver.

What happens is that the seals grip corrosion/gunk betweeen themselves and the calliper body which causes them to grip the pistons too tightly. Thus brake lever force is concentrated onto 1 or 2 moving pistons and braking effect is massively reduced.

Morning from Germany!

There are no wide-spread reports about such a problem with the brake calipers back here in Germany. However people usually have problems properly bleeding the circuit.

In fact on my R12S the brakes worked very well. I just changed the calipers because of fading under extreme conditions.

Brgds
Oliver

omg1010 wrote:Morning from Germany!

There are no wide-spread reports about such a problem with the brake calipers back here in Germany. However people usually have problems properly bleeding the circuit.

In fact on my R12S the brakes worked very well. I just changed the calipers because of fading under extreme conditions.

Brgds
Oliver

Nor here or in the US I believe. This is the first bike I've experienced the issue on as well. I did 57,000 miles on a ZXR400 without the issue, mind you - my Rockster is nearing 92,000 miles. Tokicos however ARE known by some of my compatriots on another forum as 'cheaply-made' calipers, and others have experienced the issue of corrosion getting behind the seals.

Well noted. Hence get yourself the Brembo made calipers in order to improve the braking of your bike. Check on egay or with any of the salvage specialists ...

Best regards
Oliver

omg1010 wrote:Well noted. Hence get yourself the Brembo made calipers in order to improve the braking of your bike. Check on egay or with any of the salvage specialists ...

Best regards
Oliver

Aye - that's the plan - just need to confirm that the mounting points are in the same positions as those on the Tokicos. (I would assume they are - but don't want to shell out BEFORE checking).

OK - so I'm bumping up this old topic because I've managed to make some progress in my research and want to check my findings with the group.

Obviously any calipers I replace the Tokicos with need to have matching mounting points (distance between threaded holes) and offset to the disc (to ensure the disc runs centrally within the caliper and the caliper sits 'outside' the disc run).

I've scoured the micro-fiches and discovered the following:

The Rockster is specced universally to use the Tokico brake calipers
Left p/n : 34117722525
Right p/n : 34117722526 .

These parts are also used by a few other bikes of the same period - specifically these two
R21 (R 1150 GS Adventure)   (07/2001 — 09/2005)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (12/1996 — 07/2005)

Looking at the R1100S fiches they specify 2 calipers:
Left:
p/n 34117722525
p/n 34117670391

Right:
p/n 34117722526
p/n 34117670392

The first pair (matching those specified for the Rockster) are specified where ABS is fitted, and the other parts are specified where ABS is NOT fitted.

When ABS is specified - Tokico brake pads are specified.
When ABW is not specified - Brembo brake pads are specified.

So - the 2nd part numbers are Brembo calipers. ( part numbers 34117670391 & 34117670392).

With me so far?

As far as I can see - the fork legs and disc rotors are consistent across the years for the R1100S (could be wrong). But regardless - the brake calipers are BOTH specified for overlapping years.

The same information match-up seems to follow for the R1150GS Adventure.

I know from speaking to BMW personnel a few years ago that Tokico and Brembo calipers were used 'almost at random' on bikes and this seems to bear that comment out (but with more detail as to why).

So - it appears to me that I can do a straight swap for the Brembo calipers ( part numbers 34117670391 & 34117670392), for my Rockster.

These calipers are also used on the following models :
K26 (R 900 RT, R 1200 RT)   (11/2003 — 11/2009)
K28 (R 1200 ST)   (05/2003 — 11/2007)
K29 (R 1200 S, HP2 Sport)   (11/2004 — 12/2006)
K40 (K 1200 S, K 1300 S)   (04/2003 — 08/2008)
K44 (K 1200 GT, K 1300 GT)   (11/2004 — 09/2008)
R21 (R 1150 GS)   (09/1998 — 11/2003)
R21 (R 1150 GS Adventure)   (07/2001 — 09/2005)
R22 (R 850 RT, R 1150 RT, R 1150 RS)   (01/2000 — 03/2006)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (12/1996 — 07/2005)
K41 (K 1200 GT, K 1200 RS)   (03/2000 — 07/2005)


In terms of matching the caliper to the rotor and (perhaps more importantly) the master-cylinder - the Rockster uses the following part for the Master Cylinder:
p/n 32727657182

This part is shared with these bikes:
R21 (R 1150 GS)   (09/1998 — 11/2003)
R21 (R 1150 GS Adventure)   (07/2001 — 09/2005)
R28 (R 850 R, R 1150 R, Rockster)   (11/1999 — 07/2007)
R22 (R 850 RT, R 1150 RT, R 1150 RS)   (01/2000 — 03/2006)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (12/1996 — 07/2005)

And looking at the brake rotor P/n 34112338228
This is also used on:
R28 (R 850 R, R 1150 R, Rockster)   (11/1999 — 07/2007)
R22 (R 850 RT, R 1150 RT, R 1150 RS)   (11/2000 — 11/2004)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (12/1996 — 07/2005)
K589 (K 1200 RS, K 1200 LT)   (06/1997 — 07/2008)


In regards to the wheels - it's a bit hard to match up - HOWEVER - the SILVER coloured wheel that some late model Rocksters used is p/n 36317650026
That part is shared with :
R28 (R 850 R, R 1150 R, Rockster)   (03/2002 — 07/2005)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (12/1996 — 07/2005)
K41 (K 1200 GT, K 1200 RS)   (03/2000 — 07/2005)

Further - the axle is p/n 36312335577
shared with:
K14 (F 650 CS)   (11/2000 — 07/2005)
259 (R 850 GS, R 1100 GS)   (04/1993 — 07/2006)
R21 (R 1150 GS)   (09/1998 — 11/2003)
R21 (R 1150 GS Adventure)   (07/2001 — 09/2005)
259R (R 850 R, R 1100 R)   (09/1993 — 11/2002)
R28 (R 850 R, R 1150 R, Rockster)   (11/1999 — 07/2007)
259 (R 850 RT, R 1100 RT)   (05/1994 — 11/2001)
R22 (R 850 RT, R 1150 RT, R 1150 RS)   (01/2000 — 03/2006)
259C (R 850 C, R 1200 C)   (04/1996 — 07/2004)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (01/1992 — 07/2005)
259C (R 1200 C Independent)   (05/2000 — 05/2003)
K589 (K 1200 RS, K 1200 LT)   (04/1996 — 07/2008)
K41 (K 1200 GT, K 1200 RS)   (03/2000 — 07/2005)


and the wheel 'spacer' pipe : p/n 36312335068
shared with
R28 (R 850 R, R 1150 R, Rockster)   (03/2002 — 07/2005)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (12/1996 — 07/2005)
K589 (K 1200 RS, K 1200 LT)   (04/1996 — 07/2008)
K41 (K 1200 GT, K 1200 RS)   (03/2000 — 07/2005)





So - my logic tells me that the Brembo calipers above should be a straight swap - or as close as is possible.
given that the wheel axle, spacer pipe, wheel, and rotors are also shared with the R1100S (almost across the board) makes me pretty confident that the R1100S Brembo caliper should be a straight swap.

Can anyone shed any further light - or any extra logical thoughts??

thanks!

fwiw I used the fiches here : http://www.realoem.com/ very handy!

Ok - for anyone interested.

The R1150RS Brembos slot straight on.

I bought a pair from Motorworks - not sure what mileage they'd done on the original bike but they were reasonably clean (with a little road-grime still in places).

The pistons HAD been pushed right back in when supplied but on pushing them out again they look ok at first glance.

I was in a hurry to get them on last night (they turned up yesterday) so I'll strip them off again this weekend and have a proper look at the piston walls (I don't have a compressor or any other way to push the pistons out so they needed to be attached to the bike and bled up anyway).

They feel TERRIFIC! Not sure if it's just because the Tokicos were so soft recently - but the Brembos feel massively better immediately.

At this point in time I'd say it's a highly recommended upgrade for the Rockster - obviously time will tell if these calipers suffer weather better than the Tokicos.

Excellent info and research - thanks!

I'm at 10 years and 40k miles Rockster ownership, so Brembo upgrade might be timely. But doing F800 projects first.

riceburner, not sure if you saw my comments on my recent caliper overhaul but I was able to get the pistons out using a bicycle hand pump with an adapter to inflate a beach ball or raft. It just narrows the air output down to a point. It fit in the hole where the banjo bolt goes. It was much easier to control the pressure and the pistons did not go firing out like with a higher pressure. Once I had one side out and cleaned, I reinserted them and used an old brake pad with zip ties to hold them in while I pressed the opposite side out. Brakes seem good now after cleaning the piston seals.

racurley wrote:riceburner, not sure if you saw my comments on my recent caliper overhaul but I was able to get the pistons out using a bicycle hand pump with an adapter to inflate a beach ball or raft. It just narrows the air output down to a point. It fit in the hole where the banjo bolt goes. It was much easier to control the pressure and the pistons did not go firing out like with a higher pressure. Once I had one side out and cleaned, I reinserted them and used an old brake pad with zip ties to hold them in while I pressed the opposite side out. Brakes seem good now after cleaning the piston seals.

yeah - probably going to make up a fitting for banjo holes so that I can use my large brass footpump - just haven't done it yet!

sweatmark wrote:Excellent info and research - thanks!

I'm at 10 years and 40k miles Rockster ownership, so Brembo upgrade might be timely. But doing F800 projects first.

The Tokicos I took off where (IIRC) the 3rd such pair I've had on the bike. I've had to rebuild the calipers something like once a year due to the crappy weather seals constantly being crap.

riceburner wrote: ... crappy weather seals constantly being crap.

LOL, instant classic.

Ok, so from your excellent research above, I need to find the Brembo version calipers:

So - it appears to me that I can do a straight swap for the Brembo calipers ( part numbers 34117670391 & 34117670392), for my Rockster.

These calipers are also used on the following models :
K26 (R 900 RT, R 1200 RT)   (11/2003 — 11/2009)
K28 (R 1200 ST)   (05/2003 — 11/2007)
K29 (R 1200 S, HP2 Sport)   (11/2004 — 12/2006)
K40 (K 1200 S, K 1300 S)   (04/2003 — 08/2008)
K44 (K 1200 GT, K 1300 GT)   (11/2004 — 09/2008)
R21 (R 1150 GS)   (09/1998 — 11/2003)
R21 (R 1150 GS Adventure)   (07/2001 — 09/2005)
R22 (R 850 RT, R 1150 RT, R 1150 RS)   (01/2000 — 03/2006)
259 (R 1100 S, R 1100 RS)   (12/1996 — 07/2005)
K41 (K 1200 GT, K 1200 RS)   (03/2000 — 07/2005)

Joining the hunt for Brembos.

Also time to do the superbike brake lines you recommended, or other two-section setup.