BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

Good news, and really cool video

Oof. Watching that video had my stomach in knots. Even with ABS, watching the rider brake hard on a wet surface was hard to watch.

I took the MSF BRC-2 course Sunday. When I did the panic braking test in the end of course rider assessment, I am told that I stopped from over 20 mph in 17 feet. (I doubt that's possible but it was fast.) The instructor couldn't mark me down for stopping too quickly in a panic braking test, since the point of it is to stop quickly. However, he said he wanted to.

The other instructor said "Thank God for ABS." I replied "BMW made them, I wouldn't buy a bike without them and I paid for them. What does God have to do with it?"

Nice vid on an ABS demo.
Now....a traction control demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf7k0iKLuXE

All of the ABS comparison videos I have seen, show the non-ABS bikes just locking up the brakes and crashing. I'd like to see a comparison where the non-ABS bike doesn't lock up the brakes. Then we would see the distance benefit that ABS provides. Has anyone seen such a video?
Thanks!
-jim

"Then we would see the distance benefit that ABS provides. Has anyone seen such a video?"

http://youtu.be/y6sTbgJgA0E

Dramatic difference. I've seen other tests with professional riders being outstopped by dozens of meters by amateur touring riders (amateurs on ABS bikes, pros on regular bikes).

The safety difference for ABS bikes is so dramatic and unequivocal that it can only be a matter of time before they are mandatory across the board. The argument riders make, "Well, if I kill myself, that's my choice" doesn't hold water in large numbers. Riders who kill or disable themselves leave a trainwreck in their wake. Kids without dads/moms, medical and disability costs, etc. Nobody is alone in the universe and, IMO, the broader social contract that we all share requires that we intervene and mandate that people protect themselves and, by extension, their families.

ContraMoto wrote:"Then we would see the distance benefit that ABS provides. Has anyone seen such a video?"

http://youtu.be/y6sTbgJgA0E

Dramatic difference. I've seen other tests with professional riders being outstopped by dozens of meters by amateur touring riders (amateurs on ABS bikes, pros on regular bikes).

Thanks! That is exactly what I was looking for.
-Jim

ContraMoto wrote:"Then we would see the distance benefit that ABS provides. Has anyone seen such a video?"

http://youtu.be/y6sTbgJgA0E

Dramatic difference. I've seen other tests with professional riders being outstopped by dozens of meters by amateur touring riders (amateurs on ABS bikes, pros on regular bikes).

The safety difference for ABS bikes is so dramatic and unequivocal that it can only be a matter of time before they are mandatory across the board. The argument riders make, "Well, if I kill myself, that's my choice" doesn't hold water in large numbers. Riders who kill or disable themselves leave a trainwreck in their wake. Kids without dads/moms, medical and disability costs, etc. Nobody is alone in the universe and, IMO, the broader social contract that we all share requires that we intervene and mandate that people protect themselves and, by extension, their families.

Unfortunately this would also be a good argument for banning motorcycles period. ABS should be a choice, but it shouldn't be mandatory, or next we'll be seeing training wheels, rollcages, and then no motorcycles at all.

For some reason Contramoto is inclined to move to the overly dramatic end of the spectrum quickly. Of all the boards I frequent (well this more infrequent now) this is the only one that is so hung up on ABS. We are not all going to die if we don't have ABS, children across the country aren't going to fill orphanages, etc... People are not going to end up in ambulances if they wear textile gear instead of leather etc...

Stop being so dramatic. ABS is a good thing but it does not make riding a motorcycle safe if you don't know what you are doing or don't belong on one in the first place.

Jersey up!

I aways tell a potential rider that the normal position for a motorcycle is laying on its side. They will never be as safe as a car.
But I do think that ABS brakes will one day be standard on all medium and large road bikes, just like disk brakes replaced drum brakes and halogen headlights replaced incandescent ones.
My Father used to say that the worst thing that happened to automobiles was the automatic transmission followed by power steering and brakes - now any idiot could drive. He would be speechless if he saw what cars have evolved into, my wifes car has a TV in the rear view mirror.
If you removed all the 'unnecessary stuff' and only wanted to enjoy riding a motorcycle then we would all be riding something like this:

Chumley wrote:For some reason Contramoto is inclined to move to the overly dramatic end of the spectrum quickly. Of all the boards I frequent (well this more infrequent now) this is the only one that is so hung up on ABS. We are not all going to die if we don't have ABS, children across the country aren't going to fill orphanages, etc... People are not going to end up in ambulances if they wear textile gear instead of leather etc...

Stop being so dramatic. ABS is a good thing but it does not make riding a motorcycle safe if you don't know what you are doing or don't belong on one in the first place.

Jersey up!

MODERATOR??? This is not the first time this chap (who is not a paying contributor) has weighed in with a personal comment. Can we ask him to find some manners?

CHUMLEY: Mate, you are simply inappropriate: if you want to air your grievances (vs merely stating your views), please do it without attacking people. Or get professional help: I don't care which. This is an ABS discussion thread: we've already had the benefit of your views on ABS' usefulness.

Ahhh, that's better - back to riding ...

Hi Caronbill

I did not think I was perpetrating an overly offensive act by saying that someone should not be overly dramatic, I felt it was in the same vein as the person I addressed had previously done to me:

ContraMoto from “Quandary Regarding the Purchase of a 2010 R1200R”
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:00 pm
"I think that when an opinion is posted that advises other riders to make dangerous choices, others of us have a right to object to and challenge such advice.
Folks have every right to make their own dangerous choices, but to advise others to do the same is irresponsible."

Now, the funny thing is that you perpetrated what I think is an even greater offense, you recommended that I seek professional help for something. Please be a little more clear.

If I might remind you, you were involved in that very same thread where you jumped in head first (with pretty colors to boot) and started making statements without reading and fully understanding the thread to another member. Not entirely the most "appropriate" behavior now was it?

How about you clarify what it is that I need to seek professional help and I consider it and you take remedial reading lessons (BTW: I am a proponent of ABS - but don't tell anyone, crap I already stated that several times already didn't I?). I am open minded, maybe we can share online costs from the experts.

Oh, to clarify, I paid Doug $50 back in 2003 before there was any kind of membership costs. I did it because of the sense that this was costing him personally and as a member of a "community" I thought it only fair to help. I was considering doing that again but after the lambasting from people who did not read a post and injected their own thoughts (emotions?) I thought I would hold off to see what was really going on. I have since learned that this "community" is very small with about 10 people constantly posting and essentially directing the conversation the same way, every time it seems.

So just for giggles, this is where I get the "overly dramatic" from.

ContraMoto from “leather vs textile jacket”
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:10 pm
“Ask a veteran EMT. They've seen it all and they see riders in heavy leather gear with minimal abrasion injuries, and riders in textiles needing skin grafts. (Both groups are equally likely to have other injuries...)”

ContraMoto from “Quandary Regarding the Purchase of a 2010 R1200R”
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:29 pm
But, if you threw some sand in my path, and a minivan pulled out in front of me, I bet I could tell you the difference in a heartbeat! On the ABS bike, I'd be standing there upright and mad as hell. On the non-ABS bike, I'd be lying on the ground with some form of injury and a busted up bike.

As for, "You should develop the skills..." That's a pathetic excuse to avoid proven safety technology! Nobody has the skills to panic-stop on a slippery road. There are plenty of videos kicking around out there with elite professional riders being out-stopped in tests by amateur riders on ABS bikes. I guarantee you I can stop my ABS 12R on the first run down a wet road faster than any rider of any skill level on a non-ABS bike. No practice to get familiar with the surface -- just a real world test where you ride along and hit the brakes. I will win every single time.

"You should develop the skills..." reminds me of early opponents to seatbelts who argued that you should learn to "anticipate crashes" and just reach over and hold your kid from slamming into the dash.

ContraMoto from “Standard ABS On All BMW Motorcycles”
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:49 am
The safety difference for ABS bikes is so dramatic and unequivocal that it can only be a matter of time before they are mandatory across the board. The argument riders make, "Well, if I kill myself, that's my choice" doesn't hold water in large numbers. Riders who kill or disable themselves leave a trainwreck in their wake. Kids without dads/moms, medical and disability costs, etc. Nobody is alone in the universe and, IMO, the broader social contract that we all share requires that we intervene and mandate that people protect themselves and, by extension, their families.

I believe that last line was very close to violating the rules on politics , I am proud of my restraint.

I have been a member of a number of boards snce 2000 and you can usually get a sense of the unspoken rules as well as the posted ones. We all (usually) make a tacit agreement to behave in a way that will not offend others if it is understood that it is out of bounds. This is the first time I have ever seen anything like this.

Did I get it wrong?

BTW: Can I ask for a moderator to protect me too...

So as a quick review, I do not start direct arguments in online forums but I always stick around to finish them, eventually... I am respectful to all except those who have done less than that to me. I don't post that much since I am usually busy but enjoy visiting several sites to see what is going on and usually enjoy some sense of comraderie except this site has changed and I am perplexed.

Well said!

I believe in ABS, I'm glad I've got it on my bike, and if it's available on whatever will be my next bike, I'll definitely get it.

That said, this news mildly annoys me. I'd rather have ABS as an option, just because people should have choices. Some people might not want to have it for simplicity, ease of servicing, one less potential point of failure, or simply because they're not willing to pay for it. Of course, it's BMW's prerogative to standardize it; they pioneered the technology, obviously believe in it, and it makes for pretty good PR.

Calm down. If we are not going to be civil, we are not going to be posting.
There are plenty of boards to start flame wars, this is not one of them.

Some like ABS, some don't, it's as individual as vanilla vs chocolate, so let's drop it.

Herb
MODERATOR

Thanks Herb, lately this board is becoming not fun. It seems some people just sit on the side rarely post anything positive or informative and just wait for the opertunity to jump on someone.

All, if Harry's comments are acceptable by speaking in an indirect manner then I have learned a lesson. I will be more indirect which is not my style but I can adapt, if ever needed again.

I challenge anyone to read all of my posts and tell me that I only pop up to challenge and argue others.

I will say that it appears that some virtually sit on this site and post. That is not unusual but can you let some other viewpoints be expressed? Can other posters get involved without be ganged up on? So much of what is being said is simple textbook stuff, can you stretch a bit? I have a personal policy of not getting into a discussion unless I know as much as possible about all sides to an issue or argument, not go in trying to sell my one point without acknowledging that there are other viable positions. I always try to say that it is "my position".

Of all of the hundreds of posts I have made over the years on various forums, including this one, this current forum has made me post in a personal manner more than ever. Is there a demographics here that I am not a part of? Feels like it.

sjbmw wrote:Calm down. If we are not going to be civil, we are not going to be posting.
There are plenty of boards to start flame wars, this is not one of them.

Some like ABS, some don't, it's as individual as vanilla vs chocolate, so let's drop it.

Herb
MODERATOR

Thank you, Herb.

Caroanbill wrote:

sjbmw wrote:Calm down. If we are not going to be civil, we are not going to be posting.
There are plenty of boards to start flame wars, this is not one of them.

Some like ABS, some don't, it's as individual as vanilla vs chocolate, so let's drop it.

Herb
MODERATOR

Thank you, Herb.

+1