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To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:58 am
by SILVIDEO
Hello everybody,
I was looking at this brand new R 1200 R at the Manhattan dealership; it was ordered by someone WITHOUT ABS and then he walked out of the deal. They have it for a good price but I am not sure if not having ABS would make such a difference and become a deal breaker.
Are there people out there who may be riding one without ABS that could comment on their experiences?
I would pretty much appreciate it.
Thank you all and have a great day.
Silvio.
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:45 am
by deilenberger
SILVIDEO wrote:Hello everybody,
I was looking at this brand new R 1200 R at the Manhattan dealership; it was ordered by someone WITHOUT ABS and then he walked out of the deal. They have it for a good price but I am not sure if not having ABS would make such a difference and become a deal breaker.
Are there people out there who may be riding one without ABS that could comment on their experiences?
I would pretty much appreciate it.
Thank you all and have a great day.
Silvio.
Silvio,
I think there are only one or two people here with R12R's without ABS.. which should tell you something. Non-ABS bikes are VERY hard to sell, or resell. The value of one used is much less then the cost of getting the ABS on the bike new. Differences I've seen (and I watch ebay sales of R12Rs pretty much all the time) - '07 R12R's - comparable miles - non-ABS, one just sold on Ebay for $7,600 or so. Ones with ABS - typically sell $9,600-10k.
I also suspect it will take longer - probably much longer - for the non-ABS bike to sell. A good price on a brand new '10 R12R non-ABS would have to be ~$12k or
*less* to make it even remotely reasonable.
IMHO - you'd be better off seeking a gently used R12R with ABS for the same money (and they are out there - there are some on Ebay, there are some on the BMW-MOA fleamarket). Your resale value will be maintained much better, plus - if you ever NEED ABS, the savings on the non-ABS becomes insignificant.
I don't see any downside to the ABS on the R12R - it's non-intrusive, and so far has proven quite reliable (unlike earlier hexhead braking systems with the whizzy - power brakes.)
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:03 am
by SILVIDEO
Silvio,
I think there are only one or two people here with R12R's without ABS.. which should tell you something. Non-ABS bikes are VERY hard to sell, or resell. The value of one used is much less then the cost of getting the ABS on the bike new. Differences I've seen (and I watch ebay sales of R12Rs pretty much all the time) - '07 R12R's - comparable miles - non-ABS, one just sold on Ebay for $7,600 or so. Ones with ABS - typically sell $9,600-10k.
I also suspect it will take longer - probably much longer - for the non-ABS bike to sell. A good price on a brand new '10 R12R non-ABS would have to be ~$12k or *less* to make it even remotely reasonable.
IMHO - you'd be better off seeking a gently used R12R with ABS for the same money (and they are out there - there are some on Ebay, there are some on the BMW-MOA fleamarket). Your resale value will be maintained much better, plus - if you ever NEED ABS, the savings on the non-ABS becomes insignificant.
I don't see any downside to the ABS on the R12R - it's non-intrusive, and so far has proven quite reliable (unlike earlier hexhead braking systems with the whizzy - power brakes.)
Hi Don,
thank you so much for your educated opinion; too bad the R12R I saw does not have ABS.
I will keep looking at used bikes with ABS already installed.
Thank you and have a great day!
Silvio
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:16 am
by waynemathews
deilenberger wrote:
I don't see any downside to the ABS on the R12R - it's non-intrusive, and so far has proven quite reliable (unlike earlier hexhead braking systems with the whizzy - power brakes.)
The downside to getting ABS is psychological, it starts the just-one-more-farkle spiral. Not that I would want to be without ABS...
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:43 pm
by sky_sailor
Probably the dumbest question ever asked....but...here it is anyway.
Can ABS be added to a non-ABS bike?
There, I've asked it.
Lyle
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:14 pm
by deilenberger
sky_sailor wrote:Probably the dumbest question ever asked....but...here it is anyway.
Can ABS be added to a non-ABS bike?
There, I've asked it.
Lyle
The easiest way to do this is replace the bike. BMW will not sell the code necessary to enable ABS, so that means you'd have to buy another bike, and remove all the electronics and brake hydraulics and move them over. Not really doable IMHO (and I have added ABS to several K bikes in the past.)
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:15 pm
by dbrick
*Anything* is possible if enough time and money is expended. Don E. has, I think, added ABS to two K-bikes that were not originally so equipped. They were not trivial jobs.
I wouldn't do it on a bet. ABS is heavily integrated in the both the mechanical/hydraulic system on the bike, as well as its electronics. There's so much stuff to add, and make sure works with what's already there. You'd be much better off buying an ABS bike and selling the one you have.
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:17 pm
by websterize
sky_sailor wrote:Probably the dumbest question ever asked....but...here it is anyway.
Can ABS be added to a non-ABS bike?
There, I've asked it.
Lyle
Certainly not a retrofit. Anything is possible for the determined, but it would cost thousands of dollars. There's a lot of software to the ABS system, and even if you managed to do it, BMW probably wouldn't sell you dealer the unlock code to get everything talking.
Mine is NON
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:05 pm
by qfman
My 08 is non ABS. I got the standard bike for way below recommended retail plus avoided the added expense of paying for ABS. The non-ABS brakes are nicely modulated but I would describe the initial bite as more on the soft/spongey side than sports-bike sharp. This has the effect of making it very hard to lock the front in a 'panic' stop. I have only ever chirped the front once. I really only use the rear under 10km/h or when downshifting. The engine braking is so good you can trail throttle and use front brake alone for a really balanced and stable approach to fast corners.
I kind of enjoy my R as just an engine with wheels. No ABS, no traction control or pressure sensors and no electric suspension (although I did put an Ohlins up front). Given that I got into my bike for about 3K less than an ABS equivalent I would expect to sell it for at least 3K less when the time comes. I would base the decision on whether ABS is a must-have safety feature rather than simple resale maths.
Tom
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:53 pm
by sky_sailor
That, and I've managed to keep bikes right side up without ABS since the late '60's! Of course, I don't ride the LA freeways in the rain. I have ABS on my GMC and Toyota, and I despise it. There is something to be said for the KISS principal.
Lyle
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:07 pm
by deilenberger
Yes - there are always those exceptionally skilled riders who can out-brake the ABS brain... in ideal conditions. Unfortunately - I can't always ride in ideal conditions, and when it gets sloppy out, or that deer jumps out in front of me, I appreciate the ABS. Pull that lever as hard as I can and stop right now without worrying about locking up and washing out.
But of course - the exceptionally skilled riders never experience the less then ideal conditions I guess (and although I've been riding since 1973.. I still think I have more to learn. Mebbe someday I'll be one of those skilled riders.)
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:01 pm
by qfman
Having ABS is a great confidence builder and I loved it on my last bike. I actually went on a evaluation ride of the R1200R about 6 months before I stumped up the cash to by mine. We did a 60km loop around the typical biker roads north of Sydney under the supervision of the dealer. I was looking for every opportunity to nail the throttle and brakes to see how much more power there was and how good the ABS was. I was really impressed that under really hard and sudden braking the ABS was imperceptible. Until...... I got off the bike and noticed a distinct lack of an ABS ring !! Aside from feeling like an IDIOT for not checking the demo bike had ABS (every other one I'd ridden that day did) I was pretty impressed that you can brake just about as hard as you want without fear of lockups.
I'm not a highly skilled rider by any means but I do think a lot about risk minimisation when I'm riding.
Tom
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:09 pm
by rockbottom
There is growing statistical evidence to support the benefits of ABS. When I traded my 2008 F800ST for an R1200R last summer, the fact that the F did not have ABS and I needed it (having had half a dozen fish tailing hard stops) was reason #2 for the trade. (Reason #1 was the six warranty repairs and three calls to roadside assistance in two years of owning the F).
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:18 pm
by sky_sailor
rockbottom wrote:There is growing statistical evidence to support the benefits of ABS. When I traded my 2008 F800ST for an R1200R last summer, the fact that the F did not have ABS and I needed it (having had half a dozen fish tailing hard stops) was reason #2 for the trade. (Reason #1 was the six warranty repairs and three calls to roadside assistance in two years of owning the F).
After the warranty work, I'm kind of surprised you stuck with the same manufacturer! I had an H-D that was always in the shop under warranty.....I'll never buy another.
Lyle
Re: Mine is NON
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:21 pm
by r12gecko
qfman wrote:My 08 is non ABS. I got the standard bike for way below recommended retail plus avoided the added expense of paying for ABS. The non-ABS brakes are nicely modulated but I would describe the initial bite as more on the soft/spongey side than sports-bike sharp. This has the effect of making it very hard to lock the front in a 'panic' stop. I have only ever chirped the front once. I really only use the rear under 10km/h or when downshifting. The engine braking is so good you can trail throttle and use front brake alone for a really balanced and stable approach to fast corners.
I kind of enjoy my R as just an engine with wheels. No ABS, no traction control or pressure sensors and no electric suspension (although I did put an Ohlins up front). Given that I got into my bike for about 3K less than an ABS equivalent I would expect to sell it for at least 3K less when the time comes. I would base the decision on whether ABS is a must-have safety feature rather than simple resale maths.
Tom
Are the front & back brakes non-linked on a non-ABS machine?
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:59 pm
by deilenberger
sky_sailor wrote:rockbottom wrote:There is growing statistical evidence to support the benefits of ABS. When I traded my 2008 F800ST for an R1200R last summer, the fact that the F did not have ABS and I needed it (having had half a dozen fish tailing hard stops) was reason #2 for the trade. (Reason #1 was the six warranty repairs and three calls to roadside assistance in two years of owning the F).
After the warranty work, I'm kind of surprised you stuck with the same manufacturer! I had an H-D that was always in the shop under warranty.....I'll never buy another.
Lyle
Some of us prefer to think of the F bikes as being made by a different manufacturer (and the engines certainly are..)
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:24 am
by qfman
Yeah front and back brakes operate independently on the Non-ABS model.
As for Rockbottom's fish-tailing lock-ups - they indicate a tendency to panic-stomp the rear brake. Even with ABS fitted, mashing that rear brake alone isn't going to slow you down - the ABS will RELEASE a locked brake. It took me a long time to forget about that rear-brake pedal and just use the front.
Tom
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:14 am
by gibbo111
Non ABS here to. Its not a real worry for me but I would have it on a new bike. All my bikes have been bought used and thats how they came 1150gsa, 1100s and a 1100gs that had ABS but was switched off most of the time as I live on an unsealed road. I dont ride very often in big cities or busy urban areas
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:07 pm
by PhilSB
My 07 doesn't have ABS and I can't say that I've regretted not having it. Yet!!
Re: To ABS or not to ABS?
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:06 pm
by sky_sailor
A little story about ABS here in Northern Ontario.
Mother of four, in her van (admittedly not a bike) was coming to a stop on a slight down slope for a train at a rather nasty crossing. Very icy dirt road, after a night of freezing rain. I guess her van would not stop......one of the two surviving children heard "..a chattering noise...." as his mother tried desperately to stop the van. Her last words were "....GET OUT, I CAN'T STOP....". Two kids bailed out, and she and one other child continued into the train.....both died.
Now WE know to flick the transmission into neutral, or engage the clutch.....apparently she did NOT know this...?
Lyle