Lets talk tyres

[Kieran R1200R]

I would like to talk tyres.
Tyre technology has come a long way in the past 15 years, and in the last ten years they have got wider, more responsive and have better road holding. But for me I believe it has come at a price!
And price it is!
In Australia compared to the USA we pay between $450 to $550AU for a set of modern rubber usually 120/70/17ZR 180/50/17ZR where compared to the US which can be much cheaper.
I have used all Manufacturers brands over recent years and have mostly settled on sport tyres to do the job that suits my ridding style.
In the past I have taken advantage of our high dollar and purchased tyres from America over the internet. It turns out that I can save about $200AU on a set landed.
When I purchased my R1200R it came with a set of Metzler Z6 on them. I have to say I only did about 200km on them because they wore the worst tyres I have ever experienced.
They had no feed back at all and seemed very hard in compound and not compliant at all. To the extent that they wore like a tyre left out in the sun and gone hard, horrible tyre.
I was expecting my new carbon fibre rims so I was looking around for a replacement set.
The new back rim was up in size so it now took a 190/55/17 instead of the 180 as standard.
While I had some Continental Motion tyres coming from the US I also came across a set of TOURING tyres on special at $400AU for a set fitted.
I have never just had TOURING tyres before, they have always been so called sport touring or just sport so I was a bit hesitant to buy them. I remembered a guy I use to ride with used to run the rear of this TOURING tyre but put the same make sport on the front, so I rang him up to ask if he ever had a slide out of the rear at all. He said no he didn't and he got very good wear from the rear.
With that I took a punt on the TOURING set and because of price bought 2 sets.
Usually I have never got more than 5000km out of a set of modern rubber and more like 3500kms does in a set for me. If I could get around the 5000km mark from these I would be happy. Also I intended to slow down a bit and curb my riding down to sensible pace.
I have a very good road near me called the Windy Point Road that winds up the Adelaide hills and goes for about 5km of very winding slow corner that lets you scrub all the tyre in in just that short distance because of the hair pins which allows you to gradually get the bike over. By the time you get to the end there done and you are on your way.
Because these new tyres wore marketed as TOURING tyres I was very cautious when I took off but was immediately noticing the compliance of this tyre and the corner at the end of my street gave good feel to this tyre. By the time I got through a set of traffic lights and the feel that was coming back from the tyres made me feel I made a very good choice.
I entered the first corner of the Windy Point Road and took it as normal and the tyre just stayed planted, I was so inspired still by there feel that I had the confidence to ride like they wore already scrubbed in and kept a good pace. I was very surprised at there holding on ability and by the end of the road could not tell them apart from a full sport tyre. With that I though that maybe we are being sold tyres that we don't really need as clearly this set of TOURING tyres wore up for the same job.
I have got 5200km out of these tyres and still have plenty of tread depth left which I say will st ill get a further 3000km. Now that will be 8000km for me and I have never got that from modern rubber.
By now you are saying what are they?
Well they are Michelin Pilot Road, who would have thought?
Not the 2CT but pilot road.
I still have another set but I also have 2 sets of Continental Motions to get through.
Has anyone used the Motions would like a comment on them if possible.
If you haven't had a set of Pilot Roads on before I can highly recommend them.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[dav]

Aussie tyres are't expensive there a bloody rip off, i just paid $566 bucks for a set & they scuffed up the rear rim abit & they (a bmw dealer) gave me my bike back with a the rear valve losing air (8psi lost overnight). I fixed the leaking valve & rang the dealer, they said & i quote "maybe it was like that when you bought it in" i just told them i ride the bike everyday its my only means of transport & i check the tyres twice everyday, when i get to work & in the morning before i leave for work (for nails, screws etc). Plus i use the tyre sensor thing when i hit the road.

Everybody's got different opinions about tyres & like yourself ive tried most of the brands over the years, i usually go for the sport touring range as its suits my style of riding. I was happy with the Conti's that came with the bike from the factory but decieded to try the Metzler Z6 & for $566 i have to say iam happy but i am really glad i chose the Metzler's, so far so good.

[hjsbmw]

The thing with tires is that I'd have to ride them next to each other to have a true comparison. It is easy to tell how long they last and how well they wear. However, when I get new ones the bike always feels better and rolls more easily compared to the worn ones that just came off. Since my tires last me 10k+ miles I tend to not bet too much on my memory of how they handled when they were new. So a direct comparison is hard.

That being said, I equally value a tire's handling and longevity. Changing them after 3k-5k miles is not acceptable to me. I go for the sport touring kind and 10k+ miles.

I currently have Metzeler Z6 front and rear. I like them, but I intend to try Michelin Pilot Road 2 next due to some good things I have read on this forum.

[Boxer-Lust]

Tires are like religion and politics...
I was a firm believer in sport-touring tires like Z6,PR,Roadsmart and such.
Until 3 weeks ago where I crashed because the tires let go without warning on a borrowed bike at around 85mph,at valve cover scraping lean angles I must admit...
No I am not so sure anymore if sporttires like the M5 are the more economical solution if you like to go fast once in a while...
For normal riding the old PR are probably the best tires.After 4000 miles almost no wear where tires like the Roadsmart are ready to be exchanged...But I would not ride them too hard on backroads because there must be a trade-off for the longevity.
The PR2 I don't like at all.They tend to fall into turns and don't give a feeling of confidence ridden hard.The Roadsmarts feel nice but wear like real sport-tires.
M3 and Pilot Powers I liked best so far.
BT021 and BT016 were awful.The first one did not stick and wore way too fast and the second one was toast around 1500 miles;totally unacceptable.
I will ride the M5 Sportec next and then try the new Z8 Roadtec,successor to the Z6...
But for people just riding and racking up the miles the regular Pilot Road is hard to beat;nice steering and long lasting,I agree...

[Sander Abernathy]

It sounds like you should order a 40 foot shipping container of tires and start selling them in Oz. There must be very few bikes down there and very few tire retailers for prices to be so out of line with the rest of the world.

[Dad2g5]

In my opinion I love the Conti Road Attacks the bike came with. I ride fairly hard on them dry and wet, they hold up pretty well. I have had the rear end get funny once that I can remember but I was doing 70 dropping into 3rd late entry into an offramp. I'm on my second set I changed them at 7500 miles. The rear tire was fried by then. That's my 2 cents, for what their worth.

P.S. going fast is fun

[websterize]

That being said, I equally value a tire's handling and longevity. Changing them after 3k-5k miles is not acceptable to me. I go for the sport touring kind and 10k+ miles. I currently have Metzeler Z6 front and rear. I like them, but I intend to try Michelin Pilot Road 2 next due to some good things I have read on this forum.

Great minds, Herr Harald. I'm at about 8,000 miles on Z6s and will try the Pilot Road 2 next.

[deilenberger]

I'm on my second set of Pilot Road 2's. They are a wonderful tire for about the first 3,000 miles. They become less wonderful after that due to the rather odd wear patterns that start to appear. There are ridges that form about 1.25" off center on the back and about 3/4" off center on the front. The fronts eventually become bad enough that the tire starts to howl at me.. some cupping of the ridges is also observed on the front.

I put a set on at 36,000 miles - now at 41,000 miles I had to take my belt sander to them to grind off the ridges. The 4,000 miles included a trip to Nova Scotia, what didn't have a lot of highway (perhaps 800 miles) - and did have a lot of twisties (about 1,900 miles of curves.) I believe the ridges are forming at the transition point between the harder center rubber and the softer rubber on the rest of the tire.

After belt sanding them to knock the ridges down - I can feel just how sticky the softer outside edges are.. and that the center is definately a harder rubber. I imagine if one only rode on curves they might well behave better, but my feel now is I won't be putting a third set on. After belt sanding the ridges off - the easy roll into corners returns for a while.

I do run at factory suggested tire pressures - now with +2 PSI front and rear (to see if that slows down the odd wear pattern at all..) Tire pressure monitor makes sure they are never ridden underinflated.

New - the PR2's are amazing to me. They easily roll into curves/turns, and feel as sticky in bad weather as they do in dry weather. Once the ridges appear - they are much less happy in corners, I feel the bike has to ride up on the ridge, and then ends up with a smaller contact patch due to the ridge. They no longer have the very planted feel they start with.

I've also run several sets of Conti Road-Attacks - the fronts wore about perfectly, the rear did square off some with miles (and was squared off enough at 6k that I replaced them.) Fronts would last 12k miles without being excessively worn. I may go back to them, or try the regular Pilot Roads.

[Kieran R1200R]

It sounds like you should order a 40 foot shipping container of tires and start selling them in Oz. There must be very few bikes down there and very few tire retailers for prices to be so out of line with the rest of the world.

You are absolutely right, we don't have the population so we don't have the turn over compaired to you guys.
We are just 21 million. We are getting ripped off at a blinding rate, that's why I bring them in from the US myself.

[Kieran R1200R]

I'm on my second set of Pilot Road 2's. They are a wonderful tire for about the first 3,000 miles. They become less wonderful after that due to the rather odd wear patterns that start to appear. There are ridges that form about 1.25" off center on the back and about 3/4" off center on the front. The fronts eventually become bad enough that the tire starts to howl at me.. some cupping of the ridges is also observed on the front.

I put a set on at 36,000 miles - now at 41,000 miles I had to take my belt sander to them to grind off the ridges. The 4,000 miles included a trip to Nova Scotia, what didn't have a lot of highway (perhaps 800 miles) - and did have a lot of twisties (about 1,900 miles of curves.) I believe the ridges are forming at the transition point between the harder center rubber and the softer rubber on the rest of the tire.

After belt sanding them to knock the ridges down - I can feel just how sticky the softer outside edges are.. and that the center is definately a harder rubber. I imagine if one only rode on curves they might well behave better, but my feel now is I won't be putting a third set on. After belt sanding the ridges off - the easy roll into corners returns for a while.

I do run at factory suggested tire pressures - now with +2 PSI front and rear (to see if that slows down the odd wear pattern at all..) Tire pressure monitor makes sure they are never ridden underinflated.

New - the PR2's are amazing to me. They easily roll into curves/turns, and feel as sticky in bad weather as they do in dry weather. Once the ridges appear - they are much less happy in corners, I feel the bike has to ride up on the ridge, and then ends up with a smaller contact patch due to the ridge. They no longer have the very planted feel they start with.

I've also run several sets of Conti Road-Attacks - the fronts wore about perfectly, the rear did square off some with miles (and was squared off enough at 6k that I replaced them.) Fronts would last 12k miles without being excessively worn. I may go back to them, or try the regular Pilot Roads.

You are getting the uneven ware due to the duel compound, I got the same where pattern out of a set of 016 bridgestone to the extent I did a front in before the rear. Front wore so bad I chucked it at 2500km, because I only run a new set each time the back went too!
Give the PP's a go you wont look back!

[ka5ysy]

Continental must be listening to everybody complaining about the lack of mileage. Maybe? Anybody in EU have these yet?

http://www.contiroadattack2.com/en/

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... k2_en.html

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... rt_en.html

[qfman]

I've been using Z6s on my R12 and R1150r previous to that since 2002. I've tried other rubber on and off but found they wear out too quick. I keep coming back to the Z6 because it warms up quick, has a nice gradual roll-in and wears pretty well. My current set is the new Z6 interact dual compound (with the green stripe) which are expected to last a little longer. I used to have to plug a flat on every tyre (usually within the first 2K miles) but for some reason I haven't had a flat on this or the last set. I'm wondering if these tyres are better at repelling screws and nails.

I get about 10K rear with plenty left on the front. Lots of hard starts in traffic and weekend carving. Overall they wear pretty even across the face of the tyre. I used to change them out of synch but these days a buy a new set and throw away the front early.

For a good long wearing all-rounder my vote is with the Metzler Z6 - about $500 a set fitted.

Tom

[Caroanbill]

Tyres are a matter of taste ...

... and Z6 have always tasted great to me. I like my tyres to feel absolutely consistent from centre to edge - that's actually preferable to stickiness or easy turn initiation (I dislike tyres that "fall" into corners). Metzler Z6 are about the pinnacle of that feeling for me: the road feel is exactly the same whether straight ahead on on a lean. I hated, hated, hated the Michelin M48 / M49 on my K100RT and 900SD, and disliked the PRs on my F650CS (swapped them out early for ME3 then onto Z6) ... but I've plenty of riding mates who think I'm nuts and that stickiness and easy turn initation are the duck's guts, so Metzlers are like riding on concrete. We still enjoy the day's-end beer!

I'm getting my Z6s at about $500AUD (say $450USD) for two, fitted, in Sydney - I use a generalist motorcycle mechanic business which has a specialist tyre business as well - about $50 a tyre cheaper than my dealer (though I just checked and the dealer's prices are now more competitive).

I'm getting 12,000km (7,500 mi) from rears and 16,000km (10,000mi) on the fronts. At my level of use (10,000km a year) that's also my time limit for vulcanisation - in fact the front will go in a couple of weeks because it now feels too hard.

And just to be inconsistent, I let the shop talk me out of Metzlers and into Pirellis for my Vespa - and so far I like 'em.

[AllanCook]

In my opinion I love the Conti Road Attacks the bike came with. I ride fairly hard on them dry and wet, they hold up pretty well. I have had the rear end get funny once that I can remember but I was doing 70 dropping into 3rd late entry into an offramp. I'm on my second set I changed them at 7500 miles. The rear tire was fried by then. That's my 2 cents, for what their worth.

P.S. going fast is fun

I'm with you on the Contis. Best tires I've ever had. Grippy and they last a long time. I'm running Metzlers at the moment, but I'm going back to the OEM Road Attacks when I have my annual service in October.

[deilenberger]

Continental must be listening to everybody complaining about the lack of mileage. Maybe? Anybody in EU have these yet?

http://www.contiroadattack2.com/en/

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... k2_en.html

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... rt_en.html

These look very interesting to me. As great as the PilotRoad-2's feel when new, I'm becoming disenchanted with them as miles are put on them. The first set took until about 6,000 miles before the transition ridges became big enough to be annoying.. the current set started doing it at around 4,000 miles. While I can run them out to 9-10,000 miles - it's a PITA having to grind the ridges off every 2-3,000 miles. The ridges DO appear to happen right at the transition point from soft rubber to central harder rubber. Perhaps people who live in places with lots of twisties might have a better experience, but my usual commute from work - has about 4 left turns, 4 right turns, one traffic circle and a lot of straight road. Even if I take the back-road route - it's not a bunch better. Left and right turns from stop-signs and traffic lights isn't gonna do a lot for even tire wear.

It isn't clear exactly what Conti is trying to accomplish - or how. It sounds as if there is a difference in grip/hardness from center to outside edges, with a corresponding difference in wear, but it's not clear how they're doing this. I believe Metzler is trying to do it with a variable-belt in the tire carcass..

Other then wearing out fairly quickly (about 6,000 miles for the rear, 2x that for the front) I liked the Conti Road-Attacks the bike came with. They didn't have quite the grip the PR2's do in wet weather, but perhaps with a variable grip sort of design that might be better. I never experienced them doing anything odd, and the front wore evenly (even if it cupped a bit as a lot of miles were put on it.) No ridges on front or rear, normal squaring off on the rear.

I'll comment - and this is the first I'll comment on it: The PR2 surprised me one day on the recent Nova Scotia ride. I was riding a bit more aggressively then usual (but not fast by any means - I've never been accused of "fast"..) - for me probably 6/10ths, and feeling quite good, smooth and in control of the bike.. with 3 bikes following me.

During an brief straight section of road (after coming out of a curve and setting up for another one - but going straight ahead) - the rear of the bike suddenly felt like the rear tire had blown out (I've had that happen enough times to know the feeling) sliding sideways. The bike then tried to toss me off and high-side as the tire hooked back up. It was almost uncontrollable - but I hung on, started braking as hard as I could and muscled it into a grass/gravel lined ditch on the left side of the road, and stepped off. The bike stayed upright right into the ditch.

No harm to me, no harm to the bike, (scratched the BMW cylinder protector) but it scared the crap out of me (and the poor woman whose house the ditch was in front of - she watched the entire thing.)

One of the other riders went back up the road to see if there was anything that could have caused it (they had watched the back end step out.. then hook back up.. and me/bike head for the ditch) and saw nothing. There were marks on the rear tire where you could see it had slid sideways. It's a complete mystery as to why it did it, but I'm *much* less trusting of these tires since then.

So.... I'm going to have ASC added to the bike, and I'm going to consider other tire brands. I don't like surprises like that. If a car had been coming in the oncoming lane - the story would have been much more serious. It may not have been the fault of the PR2, but it's something I'm going to eliminate from the equation.

YMMV -

[LumpyCam]

My R1200R came with the Pilot Roads and I loved them, especially in the wet. Inspired great confidence and lasted about 17,000km.

When those wore out I picked up a pair of Pilot Road IIs thinking the dual compound would be cool and last even longer (it's the II, right?). I'm not liking the PRII so much, and they are downright dodgy in the wet and I just don't have the confidence in the corners. They look like they might last forever though.

[Kieran R1200R]

My R1200R came with the Pilot Roads and I loved them, especially in the wet. Inspired great confidence and lasted about 17,000km.

When those wore out I picked up a pair of Pilot Road IIs thinking the dual compound would be cool and last even longer (it's the II, right?). I'm not liking the PRII so much, and they are downright dodgy in the wet and I just don't have the confidence in the corners. They look like they might last forever though.

hay just stick with the PP.
I've noticed you guys in Canada talk like we do in OZ and mention km instead of miles. Is your country dealing in metric?
And if so how do you fair with the USA being what they wont to be? Is there much confusion?

[Kieran R1200R]

Continental must be listening to everybody complaining about the lack of mileage. Maybe? Anybody in EU have these yet?

http://www.contiroadattack2.com/en/

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... k2_en.html

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/w ... rt_en.html

These look very interesting to me. As great as the PilotRoad-2's feel when new, I'm becoming disenchanted with them as miles are put on them. The first set took until about 6,000 miles before the transition ridges became big enough to be annoying.. the current set started doing it at around 4,000 miles. While I can run them out to 9-10,000 miles - it's a PITA having to grind the ridges off every 2-3,000 miles. The ridges DO appear to happen right at the transition point from soft rubber to central harder rubber. Perhaps people who live in places with lots of twisties might have a better experience, but my usual commute from work - has about 4 left turns, 4 right turns, one traffic circle and a lot of straight road. Even if I take the back-road route - it's not a bunch better. Left and right turns from stop-signs and traffic lights isn't gonna do a lot for even tire wear.

It isn't clear exactly what Conti is trying to accomplish - or how. It sounds as if there is a difference in grip/hardness from center to outside edges, with a corresponding difference in wear, but it's not clear how they're doing this. I believe Metzler is trying to do it with a variable-belt in the tire carcass..

Other then wearing out fairly quickly (about 6,000 miles for the rear, 2x that for the front) I liked the Conti Road-Attacks the bike came with. They didn't have quite the grip the PR2's do in wet weather, but perhaps with a variable grip sort of design that might be better. I never experienced them doing anything odd, and the front wore evenly (even if it cupped a bit as a lot of miles were put on it.) No ridges on front or rear, normal squaring off on the rear.

I'll comment - and this is the first I'll comment on it: The PR2 surprised me one day on the recent Nova Scotia ride. I was riding a bit more aggressively then usual (but not fast by any means - I've never been accused of "fast"..) - for me probably 6/10ths, and feeling quite good, smooth and in control of the bike.. with 3 bikes following me.

During an brief straight section of road (after coming out of a curve and setting up for another one - but going straight ahead) - the rear of the bike suddenly felt like the rear tire had blown out (I've had that happen enough times to know the feeling) sliding sideways. The bike then tried to toss me off and high-side as the tire hooked back up. It was almost uncontrollable - but I hung on, started braking as hard as I could and muscled it into a grass/gravel lined ditch on the left side of the road, and stepped off. The bike stayed upright right into the ditch.

No harm to me, no harm to the bike, (scratched the BMW cylinder protector) but it scared the crap out of me (and the poor woman whose house the ditch was in front of - she watched the entire thing.)

One of the other riders went back up the road to see if there was anything that could have caused it (they had watched the back end step out.. then hook back up.. and me/bike head for the ditch) and saw nothing. There were marks on the rear tire where you could see it had slid sideways. It's a complete mystery as to why it did it, but I'm *much* less trusting of these tires since then.

So.... I'm going to have ASC added to the bike, and I'm going to consider other tire brands. I don't like surprises like that. If a car had been coming in the oncoming lane - the story would have been much more serious. It may not have been the fault of the PR2, but it's something I'm going to eliminate from the equation.

YMMV -

May I suguest something without trying to sound big headed if that's the right words to use!
The milage you are quoting out of your tyres is truly ammasing to me. 9 to 10,000 miles is something I have never got even from tyres back in the 70ies.
To get milage out of tyres like that you are curtainly riding very concurvative and I can understand it as it seems the bike is your daly commute.
I personly think that a tyre like the PP2 or any duell compound tyre for you is a complete waste.
You may as well get a set of Morathons and get 15,000 miles out of them for what riding you are doing.
Even at 6/10ths of riding they would be up for the job.
I mention this because as I have started the post I think we are exactly playing into the hipe the tyre manufacturers marketing department are targetting us for.
The present set of modern sport touring rubber would be up to the likes of Wanye Gardner World Chappion GP rider back in the 80/90s bike was shode with, the tyres are that good.
And unless you intend on doing track days is a total waste of your money.
I ride reasonable hard when I take the bike out as I don't ride every day, so when I get to take the bike out I really let go.
I have used the latest sport rubber for what it is intended for and was complaining of the lake of milage I was getting.
Some tyres like the Bridgestone 016 I have only got 2500km from a front, what's that in miles? because of that duell compound setup. And that was from a good mix of corners vs straights. The duell compound was not up for transition from straight to lean and back. There for really bad ridges happy lady formed just off centre.
The Michelin Pilot Road are marketed as just TOURING and are up to the same riding I do and are also returning great milage too.
That's what I was shairing with you guy's just incase you have not tried a set, thay are truly that good. And for the wet I can't believe the grip offered. I don't like ridding in wet conditions but I got caught this day about 70km away from home and found myself going faster and faster to get home and was ostonished by the level of grip the tyre gave.
I haven't used any other TOURING tyre out there but I am sure there would be others that would offer similer character.
My point is we all fancy ourselfs as sporty riders and put Sport rubber on our bikes but in essence are just throwing money away.
Now I have found the PR I'll try and stick with it as long as it's up for offer.
As for your high side if it was caused by the tyre it is probably caused by the way the tyres is waring which is due to your riding style where that particular tyre is not designed for!
So lucky to keep the bike up! Well done Don! Shaken but not Stured

[Tr250Tom]

"It's a complete mystery as to why it did it, but I'm *much* less trusting of these tires since then. "

Don, do you think there's any chance that treating the tires with a belt sander every 2-3k miles might have something to do with this?

FWIW, I'm amazed by the reported longevity some of you guys get from tires. I just replaced a squared-off Z6 rear at 6k miles, and at 7k on the front I'm still above the TWI, but getting too close for comfort in the wet. At 6k my Road attacks were utterly shot: rear squared off badly, front cupped badly on the sides. I run 32/36 PSI solo, 36/42 laden, like the little sticker says to.

I use the bike's power aggressively, with occasional bounces off the rev limiter, so I think the rear squaring off is throttle-induced. I added ASC, but it hasn't engaged yet that I've noticed. Maybe it will help the rear wear rate.

Cheers, Tom

[deilenberger]

"It's a complete mystery as to why it did it, but I'm *much* less trusting of these tires since then. "

Don, do you think there's any chance that treating the tires with a belt sander every 2-3k miles might have something to do with this?

Tom,

Only if by some miracle it happens retroactively. These tires hadn't been treated with the belt sander. They had about 1,500 miles on them when I left for Nova Scotia. And until you've tried a belt sander for knocking "corners" off tires - don't diss it. It works quite well, and the tires feel round again (which they are..)

FWIW, I'm amazed by the reported longevity some of you guys get from tires. I just replaced a squared-off Z6 rear at 6k miles, and at 7k on the front I'm still above the TWI, but getting too close for comfort in the wet. At 6k my Road attacks were utterly shot: rear squared off badly, front cupped badly on the sides. I run 32/36 PSI solo, 36/42 laden, like the little sticker says to.

The PR2 is very specifically made to be a mileage tire. That's why the dual compounds are used. A hard center to give wear, soft sides for cornering grip. I went though Z6's on my K75S (2/3rds the HP of the R12R if you believe BMW, and I don't) at about 5k intervals. Different tires wear differently. Different riders on the same tires will get "YMMV".. It can even be a factor of how smooth (or not) your pavement is.