BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

Seems I've joined the illustrious ranks of those with FD bearing failure. Mine is an 04 with 30,000 miles. Have suspected a problem for a few weeks now but wasn't completely certain. Checked rear wheel play yesterday and found a marked increase in play from weeks back plus some oil seepage from the FD.

Never thought I'd learn so many mechanic skills in BMW ownership!

Wayne

towerworker

I feel for you.....I was just reminiscing about my youth and passion with British sports cars of yonder, MG's, Healy's, Jag's and the Lucas electrics....I owned a couple of Healey's and MGB's and before leaving the house I had to prepare myself mentally and physically (extra fuses, jumper cables, tow chain, etc) because the electrics could quit at anytime, to top it off, on the MG's the electrics, the radiator boiling off in traffic and the Amoco white gas which was about the only gas the darn thing would not ping with.

In what I would define as a strange and uncany twist of fate I do have to thank the foreign cars and specially the British ones as they were the means that paid for my college education.

Ahhhhhh.....those were the times of pleasurable rides and uncertainty...... remember that we had not even begun to dream about cell phones....we just depended on a kind heart stopping to lend a hand or take you down the road to a phone.

Lucas.............I seem to recall another name...........The Prince of Darkness?

This latest mechanical backstep has been expected. I'm not thrilled about it of course but it's not a big deal. I'm glad I'm home and not 5 states away on a long ride (Like I have planned in July/august).............that would probably make for a bad day.

Soon as I finish my coffee I'm gonna hit the local auto parts stores and buy the appropriate 12mm allen wrench similar to what CycleRob pictured in his earlier post of the same. Need to find an IR thermometer as well but doubt I will find one locally.

Probably a waste of time but I guess it's worth a phone call to my dealer's service manager to see if there is any chance at all that BMW might feel a little guilty about these failures and make an offer to help! But I won't hold my breath.

Damn. This is sad news. These reports are like loved pet deaths, but so much more expensive.

Time to pull on my wheels again.....

Extremely sorry to hear of your failure. I was in process of changing my final drive fluid with Lucas gear oil after your recommendation, maybe I should consider something more expensive. Keep us updated on your progress so that we can all learn from your experience. Can you let us know what month your bike was manufactured?

Are you sure it's a FD failure, and not just loose pivot bearings?
That's what my problem was ~8000mi ago...new JL Bushings solved that. An easy fix....

You're getting 'seepage' from where? The boot? Leaking out the hub or bottom of the drive?
Leakage past the pinion seal into the boot is not unusual, from what I can gather, and is not too big a deal. I had a very small amount in there when I did my pivots, but nowhere near enough to leak out the gaiter.
I'd be concerned about leakage from anywhere else tho.....

Just my HO, but if you only have the leakage & wheel play as you describe and you're not getting noticeable amounts of shavings on your drain plug, I'd inspect the crown bearing
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159180
Mine looked fine, so I then sent a sample of FD oil to BlackstoneLabs. Nothing unusual.....
Then I read that if you apply the rear brake (firmly..this 'unifies' the wheel and FD) and still get the same wheel play, it's most likely your pivot bearings.
All this worked for me....new pivot bushings solved my wheel slop, and I check this after every ride....
04 R, bought new in June05, just crashed thru 35000miles....

Hottech---My bike was built 01/04. I'm the second owner--had 17K when I bought it a year ago. Has a tad over 30K now. I think I can safely assume the previous owner used BMW for all her service. I have used Lucas for many years with never a problem and this past summer started adding moly to the FD. I'm no authority on oils but would have a difficult time believing that it's an oil issue.

jm1515--you bring up a good point concerning the pivot bearings. Have not checked that issue out but will shortly. I've spent the morning gathering some tools I didn't have in preparation for some wrenching this afternoon. Found a IR thermometer for $20 at Autozone as well as a set of 3 Allen keys (1/2" drive) 12,14 and 17mm for $15.

I will post an update this evening after a birthday party for one of my grandsons---turns 6 today. Grandpa is getting him his first bicycle!

Wayne

Wayne --

Sorry to hear about your mechanical troubles. If it turns out to be the paralever bearings, you may want to consider replacing with bushings instead. A couple of folks I've run into have recommended these: http://rubberchickenracinggarage.com/bushings.html
I've dealt with Tom Cutter,the owner of RCRG, and can vouch for his work as a mechanic - I'm sure his recommendation about bushings vs bearings is a good one.

Let us know how things turn out.

Charlie

towerworker

Before jumping in I would second jm1515 and challey's sugestion to check the roller bearings. Likewise the bushing and race replacement although it appears as it were a step backwards it does counter the roller bearing partial use as a thrust bearing. Also do keep in mind that being a one sided arm, it has to contend with any and all twisting forces of the back wheel through the long lever arm.

In any event, it is imperative your ride gets repaired so your 6 year old grandson can have it when he turns of age.....

Update---

Pulled rear wheel and took a very close look around. Absolutely no oil seepage from the large seal around the hub. The oil is coming from under the rubber boot. I didn't pull the boot but cleaned everything as well as reasonably possible. (time constraints) Also drained the fd and checked closely the magnetic drain plug. Oil was clean as was the plug. Not even a bit of sludge around the magnet. After rechecking the wheel play I'm not so certain the little bit I'm feeling is from the fd itself. Possibly the pivot bearings as was earlier mentioned. Maybe I'm imagining things in my old age!

At any rate put all back together again and will just run it for a while and keep a close watch on things. I would have thought if the fd bearings or race or whatever else is in there was going south then I would see some metal shavings or at least some metallic sludge on the magnet. Any thoughts anyone?

Gotta run for now----have a Walmart date with a 6 yr old!

Wayne

This is timely reminder for myself: check the rear wheel wobble on our bikes.

Wayne - please let us know how this goes, including the repair option you choose. CycleRob's recent thread on the same topic offers all of us some invaluable how-to (and who-to-do-it) tips.

Moderators: Please consider possibility of consolidating the Archived Thread sections into just a couple of key topics. I'm thinking

"Problems" - FD bearings, fuel connects, tight wiring, splines, cam chain tensioner, etc.
Maintenance
Modifications
Accessories

The 2 threads in "General" could be placed in Great Rides.

We've got lots of great info hidden away in this latest board. Search provides access, especially for those of us who search for authoritative authors along with pertinent topics. Nonetheless, for folks new to the board the Archived info could provide an excellent and easy means to get answers.

Wayne,

Here is how yu can isolate the problem to either the ring bearing, or the paralever pivot bearings:
Have an assistant apply the rear brake while you check for play. If there is play (at the rear wheel) with the rear brake applied then the problem is your paralever pivot bearings (not a big issue IMO). However, if the play goes away when the brake is applied then it is mnost likely your ring bearing.

Hope this helps.

I spoke on the phone with Wayne twice today about his FD problems. There was a time constraint for the bicycle purchase, but we ironed out the course of action. I also noted that the important particulars are already written out in my recent FD post. Specifically, the use of blue loctite* on the pivot bolt threads -and- red loctite* between the pivot bolts and roller bearing inner race. There's gonna be a very happy 6 year old tomorrow. I remember my first (used) bicycle well!
My drainplug and oil drained also did not show any indications of FD failure. It has had the miniature black broccoli bush on the magnetic drainplug in the distant past, but not recently. The looseness in the rear wheel reveals itself in the bike's handling. The problem is that it happens so gradually you become accustomed to the very slow changes. Instability plus a lack of confidence in severe lean angle corners -and- an annoying amount of "wandering" while going straight ahead on the highway. It requires many "corrections" to keep it going in a straight line. If your bike has those symptoms (and you don't have a heavily loaded large rear top box) then you have a bearing problem. Front wheel, TeleLever pivots, steering stem, SwingArm pivot, FD pivot or FD wheel bearings are worn/damaged/corroded. Any one of those will give you deterioration in your bike's handling. The one that keeps happening to our group just happens to be the highest quality, most expen$ive one

The Red & Blue thread locker colors have become the industry standard.
Red = Permanent, needs 200degF to soften it for disassembly. VERY difficult to remove without heat. So difficult it can cause the bolt to shear off, destructive thread fracture or fastener head destruction. Used when fastener security is extremely important (or lawyers have made it so).
Blue = Semi permanent, needs extra force to break it free. Prevents loosening from vibration or component stresses. Useful for critical fasteners removed during routine service like caliper mount and footpeg bracket bolts.

Wayne,

Really sorry to hear about your misfortune w/ the bike.
But hey, with a 6 year old grandson around, how bad can anything be, especially when they have a new bike.
Best of luck w/ the diagnosis & repair.

Regards,

DLS

Daryl--

I have 3 grandson and 1 granddaughter! The boys are 4,7,8 and she is 10. I have given 3 bicycles so far with one more bike due in July.

Life is good............................BMW motorcycle is questionable!

Wayne

I'm afraid to report it's not just a northern hemisphere problem. Just reinstalled my final drive on the weekend. This is after only 45,000 kilometres. My mechanic replaced the output bearing in the FD and this was only a year after having the paralever bearing replaced. If i were in your shoes Towerworker i'd take Challey's advice and get a set of paralever replacement bushings installed while the FD is off.

My main concern now is how accurately did i torque the floating pin? I reckon cyclerob will inform that it was very critical to get the 7nm correct.. One would have thought that a company that has been developing and making these drives would have got it right by now. Good luck with your repairs.

Aaah yes, the floating pivot pin bearing preload torque. You can and should use the torque wrench method -but- that requires rigid adherence to the thread cleanliness and full lubricity provided by full coverage of the thread locking agent. If it binds and you're not tight enough, the bike's handling will tell you that you made a mistake. If you go too tight, it just distorts the shape of the thin walled Aluminum swingarm casting. If you do that, for one reason or another, it can cause a weakness that may show up like THIS . That pic's just so you know the dangers of winging it with confident enthusiasm, a powerful heat source, a small bottle of thread locking agent, and a new set of tools. That's why dealers and experienced mechanics are there for you.

When I tightened that pivot bolt, I moved the FD up-n-down thru about 10" (25.4cm) of an arc swing, without the bottom torque arm connected, of course. You can turn the pivot bolt tight with a stubby ratchet and feel the immediate increase in the effort it takes to work the suspension up-n-down. You can actually sense the large diameter swingarm tube being distorted (a little). I say this because the adjustment you're making does not get tight "all at once" like front wheel bearings on a car would. It feels very springy. That's the circular casting going slightly oval. I found the point where it was certainly snug as a tapered roller bearing should be, but no extra effort was needed to work the suspension by hand. That resistance feedback is real and leaves no doubt you've found the correct zero bearing play setting . . . something less than 1 turn. Besides moving smoothly and falling with it's own full weight, it was quiet too. That "extra effort" to swing the FD up-down, if you had used that over-tight setting, would indicate an axially overloaded bearing setting. ESPECIALLY if it doesn't fall with it's own weight, regardless of being torque wrench set. In hindsight, I should have noted how much of 1 turn from initial contact was required to attain my final setting.

BTW, that entire last paragraph just took you just as long to read it (with comprehension) as it took me to do it to the point of the 30mm locknut torqued to 118 ft-lbs. Yes, because you have to have all the tools at-hand-ready and work quickly before the thread locking agent begins to set up. It was a challenge to be enjoyed, like solving a puzzle you've solved before. Ever watch a chef in a Chinese restaurant swinging a knife and spoon thru the food in a wok? Smooth, quick, no mistakes . . . done!

"Ever watch a chef in a Chinese restaurant swinging a knife and spoon thru the food in a wok? Smooth, quick, no mistakes . . . done!" CycleRob

"Ever watched a cook in an Indian restaurant shooing some of the flies off the ingredients and using his hands where others use utensils? Definitely not smooth, never quick, you can count the mistakes on ten fingers...finally done!" Gunga

I realize riding a motorcycle can be hazardous, but that photo of the final drive departure has elevated that danger to a whole new level.

Feeling lucky mr din?

Pity CR you have decided to "trade up" to the F800, but very good news to all those 800 owners who will benefit from your expert and generous assistance. You will certainly be missed on this forum, but not forgotten.

Thanks
gunga

Holy cow

How comon is this in the R1150RT's?

gunga din,
I won't be leaving for good. I'll just be in the rooms next door in the same big house. They are both connected by my less frequent lurking in the OilHeads room and dare I mention it, the PM system.

CasterTroy, I don't want to contribute to screams of "the sky is falling" . . . . but, it happened to me and Boxer too. BTW, the RT models are more likely to have this happen just because of the extra weight they haul at sustained higher "cruise" speeds.

My new "one oil supply", no clutch slave, belt drive, water cooled twin breaks new BMW ground for me and I can't wait! One big thing: it's clutch splines are submerged in oil and very tightly mounted. Their costly failure is absolutely impossible.