BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

The rear wheel has had noticeable side-2side play since last summer when the I first felt a tiny bit of it at the 60,000mi check. Not bad, but perceptible. Nothing bad ever came out with the oil drained like flakes, glitter or excessive black fuzz on the magnetic drainplug. It has had Mobil-1 or other full synthetics every 12K mile since the 600mi check, all of which I did. Months ago I took the FD apart for a bearing surface inspection and saw nothing abnormal. The small end tapered roller bearing's rollers were not mirror shiny, they just had a nice satin surface. The play slowly got worse to the point where going straight on the highway at normal speed became an annoying task of constant minor steering corrections, just to go straight. In regular M/C's that's indicative of steering neck bearings too tight -or- worn wheel/swingarm bearings or wheel spokes too loose. In the case of my Beemer, I knew it's the play in the rear wheel bearings - - - which on a shaft drive bike are inside the FD unit. They are also many times more expensive and much more costly to replace -but- they never fail (in Hondas, Yamahas, Kawasakis or Suzukis). Enter BMW, who has had shaft drive almost exclusively since 1923, and we have a troubling number of FD failures. Huh??? The temptation is to blame sloppy service from a careless negligent owner. Not in this case. I've been fanatical about wind free cleanliness at change time and the quality of oils used. Failure happened anyway.

It also began to make a low growling noise on right turns at speed, the pitch frequency sounding exactly like the meshing gear teeth were being forced together tighter than they should be (they were). Cornering stability and willingness to hold the chosen line was also nearly gone. I could not take it way over without feeling the instability. Like worn out stock shocks, only I own the Swedish yellow spring'd ones.

Knowing it must be fixed and winter is the best time, I ordered the 2 bearings from Chicago BMW. Eight days later a UPS truck delivered them. Originally I had planned to pay a local machine shop $40 (like they did for Boxer's bike) to remove the big bearing, then take it to BMW to finish the job after I installed the new big bearing. I figured that'd be less costly. They'd R&R the small bearing and measure/install the proper shims. Then I thought it over and decided to give the dealer the taken apart FD and let them do both R&R's.

I called Atlanta BMW on Tues, explained I wanted both FD bearings replaced and he said bring (as in carry) the FD in Thurs or Fri!!

I let it drain 2 days then took it apart. It was easy because I did NOT use the lawyer req'd Req'd Loctite on the pivot bearing bolt threads. I am not alone in this bold assessment. The 160Nm or 118Ft-Lbs tightening torque, on fine threads is so strong it will never loosen! To match the lubricity of the red Loctite so the torque value isn't corrupted by a dry/greased/oily thread, I used Ann's clear nail polish.

Almost an hour drive -and- from the time he took the small box with my split open FD in it till the time it came back back out, 1Hr55Min expired. They charged me for 1.75 hours labor, 2 shims and "shop supplies". Labor was $136.50 and the total came to $167.43 -Nice!

I was pleased it wasn't 2.8hrs and $350! I also had a glazed donut and a huge cubed Tootsie roll while I listened to Rush Limbaugh on my radio. They even had apples, oranges, cold soda and coffee in the small open area customer lounge. Nice operation. Attentive but not annoying staff.
I got the old parts back including 2 old big bearing shims. That says that, had I just replaced the bearing(s), it would be incorrectly shimmed !!

Total for ChicBMW parts and ATL BMW labor was $269.19. I'd say it pays to get the parts -20% off and bring just the FD to the dealer.

It's raining here for the next 2 days, so I have tons of time to reassemble it . . . . . real . . . . . . slow.

11

Thanks for the write up and the description of the symptoms!

CycleRob wrote:It was easy because I did NOT use the lawyer req'd Req'd Loctite on the pivot bearing bolt threads. I am not alone in this bold assessment. The 160Nm or 118Ft-Lbs tightening torque, on fine threads is so strong it will never loosen! To match the lubricity of the red Loctite so the torque value isn't corrupted by a dry/greased/oily thread, I used Ann's clear nail polish.

I'm just a tiny bit nervous about this only because if they began to loosen (I know the chances of this are impossibly remote) on a long trip I would have to find a 12mm allen somewhere to tighten it. I was thinking of using a medium or low strength loc-tite. Another possibility might be the external telltale red marker glob on the heads of the pivots (not sure what it's called). This would allow for a quick inspection during a walk-around without the PITA.

I'm not going to start the post with the old cliche "I told you so" But Rob and I talked about the bearings and rmoval of such during his prior intervention. I suggested he replacethe bearings and to provide me with the bearing numbers so they could be sourced less expensively.

Rob decided on his course of action and off we went....well, I'm glad that everything got resolved satisfactorily for Rob and I hope that he can provide me with the bearing numbers.

That being said, it is not diffcult to set the backlash on hypoid gears as all you are doing with the bearing spacers is seting the clearance between the gears, so there is good contact between the teeth.

Now I'm going to let you in on a little secret......bearings are one of the most dimensionally perfect parts produced. The bearings as set up from the factory to the desired clearance, bearings wear in time and so do gears, however, properly set-up hypoid gears will wear several bearings before they wear out.

So if your bearings wear out and you are replacing the bearings al you have to do is note and go back with the same satck of shims that came off each bearing, this is due to the fact that the bearing dimensions are that precise. Now, all bets are off if you also replace the gearset as now you will have to set th backlash again.

I have done it in automtive applications many times, street and racing and never had an issue.

To close this interesting post and moveto address the never ending, real or imagined maladies that have plagued the R259 which appear to occur somewhat prematurely in the expected usefull life of the product, I have come up with a theory.

BMW engineers designed the product during a long weekend party and instead of adding they substracted the typical design margin added to wearable components. On Monday, after the effects of the weekend had worn off one of the engineers called the error to the attention of the others, as a group they decided that it would not be in their best interest to come clean and decided to keep mum. In addition, they also agreed that when the failures started coming in they would absolutely find no fault with the product and chalk it off to abuse, operator error or that americans are too fat and induce premature wear of the components, basically not acknowledging the problem.

Yes, I might be ranting but is Saturday, the weather is lousy and I can't ride, so the other choice is to bash BMW's Teutonic Arrogance........

11

The Germans must use crappy metals. Input shafts and clutch hubs, FD bearings wearing out before 100-150K miles is ridiculous. Japanese bikes don't seem to have these failures, and automobiles don't either. unfortunately I guess we have to deal with these problems if we want to ride BMWs. I just don't want to ride a japanese bike, why? I don't know. I do know, though, that when all is right BMWs, they are sweet rides. There is "something" about them that keeps us buying/riding them and dealing with their shortcomings. My $.02 worth.

Rob,

Please get with Boxer and plan to join him on the trip Hungry Mother in August. We will be having a great time! Your willingness to share your great knowledge, experience, and expertise is always appreciated and welcomed. Also, I am dying to find out how polishing your nails contributed to your FD bearing replacement.


mac

Good work Rob...As usual. My big bearing replacement seems to be functioning fine.

The thing I'm watching is my drive shaft! My smaller bearing, on the other side, appeared okay when Rob took it all apart a few months ago, but my U-Joint in the drive shaft had a strange little "bump" in it at about mid point. Rob's assessment: Start looking for a replacement drive shaft! I'm keeping my eyes on BeemerBoneyard, but if anyone knows of another source please clue me in. (I mean other than the brand new $600 OEM one).

Note to MChew: Rob doesn't camp. But there is a nice cheap motel in town, which JB uses when he comes.

hey Boxer thanxs for the great post. I am going to be replacing my final drive unit here in a couple days. I am waiting for a heat gun to arrive that I ordered so that I can get that 14mm bolt out. You said that you didn't apply the normal specs when replaceing that bolt. What did you torque it to if you didn't use the normal torque? I was thinking about using blue lock-tight. Anyone's 2 cents on this bolt would be great, because that bolt is my demon right now.
Also what services should I consider doing while I have that sucker off?

I think we need to have a "Clutch spline/Final drive" repair/replace party at Hungry Mother.

Ukemi,
An L shaped Allen wrench with a pipe on it will likely dog-ear the Aluminum bolts female Allen head. Then you are REALLY screwed! It's a 12mm allen. I have a $25 Snap-On ½" drive driver like this:


Some tips:
--Use normal drive heat from a (!fast!) freeway trip to have a better thermal starting point.
--Use TWO target roaming heatguns and start at the FD pivot bolts 1st.
--Do NOT heat the bolts!! Avoid them!!
--Heat the area within 10 inches of the bolt, mostly close to the bolt in a circle, about an inch from it.
--Use a handheld IR thermometer to let you know when 200F is attained.
--A single 1100W heatgun will take 25--35 minutes / bolt loosened. Two guns is quicker by half.
--Be prepared for 150ft-lbs++ torque to break it away.
--Maintain axiality with the Allenhead when applying the great loosening force req'd. That means using one hand on the drive end, the other on the breaker bar end. Absolutely NO STEPPING ON THE BREAKER BAR!!
--Forcing the bolt loose before the Red Loctite has softened can damage the swingarm's Aluminum fine threads.
--Do NOT use an air impact wrench!!!!!!!!! It will destroy the Aluminum bolthead's Allen socket. I don't even have to try it to know it will happen.

If you aren't sure you can do this -or- don't have a good quality ½" drive tool like above . . . delegate it to someone who can. The parts you WILL damage, like the bolt's Allen socket or the fine threads in the bike's Swingarm, are !Expen$ive! to fix!

There is also U-Joint phasing that must be addressed. That's where the inboard yokes are in the same position (phase). You'll need to shine a bright lite up the driveshaft tunnel to see the front U-joint and position the yoke closest to you with it's steel part "up". Then you can mark the spined driveshaft tube at the top and align it (phase) with the yoke on the rear U-Joint. Also, on the old FD, the U-joint just pops off it's spring wire ring retainer with a pry bar tucked into the joint itself. Pop it "home" onto the new FD with a dead blow mallot.

Are you still confident?

Good luck!
.

This is the 12mm bit I got for $12. Not as good (or expensive) as Snap-On, but should be plenty strong enough with the impact version.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#55105a64/=tcxm6

CycleRob wrote:--Do NOT use an air impact wrench!!!!!!!!! It will destroy the Aluminum bolthead's Allen socket. I don't even have to try it to know it will happen.

I'm SO glad I didn't have the above socket until I already had the bolts out. I would have been VERY tempted to do just that. I'm glad no one else was there to see the ridiculous positions I was in to try loosen these bolts with the rear end off the bike. Imagine, if you will, standing on the workbench with one foot holding the transmission down while pulling upwards with all my might. Pretty funny in retrospect, but I wasn't laughing at the time. Much better to do this while it's all still attached to the bike.

CycleRob wrote:There is also U-Joint phasing that must be addressed. That's where the inboard yokes are in the same position (phase). You'll need to shine a bright lite up the driveshaft tunnel to see the front U-joint and position the yoke closest to you with it's steel part "up". Then you can mark the spined driveshaft tube at the top and align it (phase) with the yoke on the rear U-Joint. Also, on the old FD, the U-joint just pops off it's spring wire ring retainer with a pry bar tucked into the joint itself. Pop it "home" onto the new FD with a dead blow mallot.

I didn't think you would mind a link to your previous post showing proper phasing. This cleared up any questions I had about this.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/ ... ube-15.jpg

Thanks for the help CycleRob. Having all of those little details will make it much easier to perform the up coming task.

I finally got around to reassembling the FD yesterday. While in town I stopped at an AutoZone to pick up an $11 tube of the "other" brand of Blue thread locker. They did not have the less expensive liquid, so I got the gel. I already have several plastic vials red loctite.

When I started to clean the FD pivot bearings and inner races, I noticed a few hidden details that would greatly help anyone that also will do this job. The pivot bolt threads are 2 different sizes (between Left and Right). The Right side is a larger diameter thread and it allows the bearing inner race to be removed thru the threaded hole (that is important!). The Left side pivot bolt, with the big 30mm locknut on it will NOT allow the inner race to pass thru the smaller diameter threaded hole. Since the factory apparently puts red loctite between the inner race ID and the pivot bolt, you will have a hard time completely removing that bolt and it will likely cause thread damage just as the larger inner race butts against the inside of the swingarm casting just as the pivot bolt is almost removed. UNLESS you add 200degF heat to the bolt to soften the red loctite when it bottoms out on pivot bolt removal. This, I am sure, is what caused Beemeridian's pivot bolt thread damage during his disassembly. The first time I took mine apart, there was red loctite on the threads AND between the inner race's ID and the pivot bolt. I thought it was a migrating sloppy excess, but red loctiting the inner race to the pivot bolt serves 2 very beneficial purposes.
1--It prevents the inner race from spinning on the pivot bolt instead of rotating inside the needle bearing, like it should.
2--It takes up any minute play between the 2 parts, adding solidity to the bike's handling.

I just checked the shop manual and it makes NO mention of putting red loctite between the pivot bolt and the inner race ID, like the BMW factory has done. Therefore, I didn't put any red loctite there when I had it apart recently for the input shaft spline lube. It caused the inner race to turn on the pivot bolt and score it's smooth ground surface! Apparently the cone shaped inner & outer bearing races have slight wear notches in them (after 63,000 miles) that held onto the inner race and made it turn on the aluminum surface of the pivot bolt instead. That minute turning, with high loads, scored/galled the smooth ground pivot bolt's bearing ID mating surface. Yes I could have replaced all the costly, less than perfect parts involved now, but the imperfections can be tolerated for the dwindling time I will own this bike*. Also, they all can be quickly replaced at any time "necessary" -after- I have all the noted replacement parts in hand.

Getting back to the reassembly, you have to put the left inner race into the FD left needle bearing prior to plugging the U-Joint spline into the driveshaft, or you'll have to remove it again to get it in. That's because the FD inner race does NOT fit thru the (smaller) threaded hole! It will on the larger diameter right side, so you can leave that one off for now. OK. I lined up my red nail polish phasing marks on the mating driveshaft parts and struggled for 10+ minutes searching for the point of perfect axial/rotational spline alignment required for the 2 snug fitting parts to go together. A long thin screwdriver thru the right side threaded hole serves to lift the driveshaft to the correct level so it can plug onto the U-joint shaft. It was annoyingly difficult this time, but very easy the previous time I did this operation last fall. Go figure.

When it finally did go together and holding the FD in place with my knee, I put blue thread locker on the pivot bolt's threads and red loctite on the shaft portion that goes inside the inner race ID. Same for the other side too. You have to work quickly before the red loctite sets up, attaining full final assembly torque in less than 3 minutes. It sounds difficult but it's not. Just don't panic and whistle while you work. Be aware that the tighter the fit between the thread locked parts, the quicker it sets up. It will not harden if you squeeze out or spill a drop on a non porous surface. The drop will remain a liquid for many hours, even overnite!

Back to the assembly . . . . I applied 150% of the initial bearing preload torque and left it there for 10 seconds or so for the red loctite on the vertical mating surfaces of the pivot bolts to squeeze out to both their minimum thicknesses. Then loosened and reapplied the correct torque before immediately tightening the 30mm locknut. I had put a prick punched mark on the face of the left pivot bolt head before to see if it had moved after tightening the 30mm locknut. It does NOT, the 3 different times I've tightened that very same locknut. You do not need the $pecial hold'um tool. Just a referencing punch mark. The manual says to allow 3 hours for the red loctite to set up. Seeing how it was late and supper time was here, I gave it overnite.

The next day when I went for that 1st ride with the new bearings, the bike's amazing, full confidence, totally neutral, completely stable handling had returned!!!! Going straight or digging deep in a corner at 2x the legal speed. What a great feeling to throw it into a sharp corner going "fast" and have it feel so hooked up at ANY lean angle! No more FD growling either.

* A new bike is planned this year! See my post in Off Topic.

Nice Cyclerob. Recently changed my pivot bearings, too. Replaced the OEM bearing with these http://rubberchickenracinggarage.com/bushings.html.

If anyone chooses to go the brass bushing route, let me know and I'll share what I learned during the installation.

Velvet Monkey - I'm doing the brass bushing route. Any handy tips? Things you wish you knew before you began? Any info is much appreciated.
Thanks!

CNorris wrote:Velvet Monkey - I'm doing the brass bushing route. Any handy tips? Things you wish you knew before you began? Any info is much appreciated.
Thanks!

Here's a few...aside from the standard 'lots -o -heat' when removing the pivot pins....my OE bearings were not glued to the pins, but the threads definitely had green super glue all over them..probably the OE euro-Loctite 2701. LOT"S of heat.....
1. Get the right Loctite...it's #270, available from Tom Cutter when you buy your bushings. There is a difference...
Use it to 'glue' the bushings to the pins as instructed...but I wouldn't bother with it on the threads of the pins.
I used Blue Med Permatex there, for easier subsequent removal. The fine threads and immense torque on these pins pretty much ensure they will not go anywhere. I marked them w/ black paint against the FD housing anyway....
Leave the left side clean until you recheck torque at about 1000mi as instructed, then the Blue stuff on the pin and locknut....
2. Avoid the temptation to 'test-fit' the bushings onto the pins before install....they are a tight fit and you may have REAL trouble getting them off...
3. Freeze the provided outer races for a few hrs before install...then heat the FD housing as appropriate when ready to install and the races will practically drop in.
Don't skimp on the grease for races before installing the bushings. Any decent bearing grease will do, and you don't need to use the same high-Moly content grease as needed for the driveshaft splines....
4. Before maneuvering the FD/bushing assembly into the driveshaft housing, support the driveshaft with a towel so that it 'floats' in the housing....makes aligning the FD & DS mucho easier. DON'T forget to remove the towel....
5. Your bushing install notes will say to preload the inboard pivot pin to 36~48in. lbs. This is only 4.xx ~ 5.xx nt m, not even what the OE bearings require. This must be a boo-boo, because this torque does remove any of my wheel slop.
I secured a 2.5' long 2x4 to the FD via 2 of the wheel lugs, just to test things while I installed. This was also to support the FD while piddling around....
It took 8.6 nm on the left pin to give my FD a nice, smooth movement thru its arc, with NO slop....
Been that way for over 3k mi now.....

Thanks for the tips, Triple Lifer! The bushings are back-ordered right now, something to do with their lathe, so I'm gathering info b/f I tackle the job. The number one thing I keep hearing is about the heat to free up the factory Locktite. The info on the preload seems invaluable, also. Thanks again.
I'm hoping that by switching to the bushings this is a once and done deal. The bike has 53K on it and it looks like I'm going to need to get another 50K out of it