BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

As we are having relatively warm rainy weather, I decided that now would be a good time to check out those splines. After studying CycleRob's tutorial and the BMW manual, I started removing many, many pieces from the bike.
I am having trouble getting the back end to swing up. Does the battery cage need to come out? It looks like I might need to move the ABS unit around to do that. Also, do the bolts at the front pivot point of the frame come out or are they just loosened?
The manual says to unfasten the air filter box front and rear. I could only remove a screw at the rear and nothing at the front was seen.
I have removed: muffler, cat, bottom bolt to strut, rear wheel, starter, charcoal canister, removed the rear brake caliper and abs sensor, and disconnected the rear master cylinder from the frame. What am I missing?
TIA
Andy

Update - I removed the front bolts and the tail started to come up. The airbox is colliding with the battery cage so it will only go to about 45 degrees. I got the six transmission bolts out and as I was pulling the transmission back I noticed two things.
First (and most concerning) is that there is play from left to right here....


On my last ride I felt something loose in the back end. It almost felt like a flat tire.

Also, before I get the trans off I need to do something about this. Picture taken from underneath. It's right below the clutch slave. Neutral sense switch?

Method of removal from this end isn't obvious and the other end goes under the battery cage that I'm not sure how to remove without removing the abs.

OK - it turns out that the ABS has to move in order to get the bolts beneath it out as they are bolted directly onto the transmission. I was able to move the abs out of the way enough without detaching any of the brake lines. After doing that, I had enough slack to undo and remove the connector for the neutral sense switch. After some tugging and pulling and swearing, I finally got the transmission off and here's the good news:



So I still have two potential issues.
1. Still not sure what I'll have to do to address the looseness in the rear end.
2. I take it that any oil in the clutch slave is bad. Mine had gear oil in it. CycleRob's mod has already been done and I assume I'll need a new clutch slave. Anything else?

On another note - I went to Bob's BMW today to get the two bolts I needed to make guide pins, the BMW spline grease and the two tapered bearings that I might need for the rear end. I told them I wanted the spline grease and they asked if I wanted the BMW stuff or the much better stuff that they use. I asked to see what they use and it's DOW MOLYKOTE BR2 Plus grease. He claimed that it lasts for years. I'm going to return it because it turns out I already had some, but it's consistency is just like regular grease. Should I get the BMW stuff when I go back to get the clutch slave (if I need it)?

Hey, Andy.

Your splines look fairly worn, but not critical. I would keep an eye on them, probably yearly. Most people use Honda Moly-60 on the splines. The BMW stuff is supposed to be good. My mechanic uses spline grease made for Catepiller tractors. I don't know which is best. How many miles on those splines?

Are you sure the stuff in the slave cylinder well is hydraulic fluid or transmission oil? If oil, you may need to change the real tranny seal. If hydraulic fluid, then just the clutch slave cylinder.

Is the looseness you're feeling in the paralever pivot bearings? The rear most bearings almost always need replacing. The front ones are usually good.

Andy

You probably have lots of miles on your ride and since it's your only means of getting around I would save myself some agrarvation and take care of everything while the bike is appart.

New input shaft for the tranny
New clutch disc
New clutch slave cylinder
Paralever bearings, if they have play

Clean everything up and enjoy your bike for another zillion miles.

Regards and best of luck

Thanks for your replies. Bike has 36k miles and is not my only means of transportation.
At a parts only cost of approx $500 plus a lot more time, I'm leaning towards keeping the clutch and input shaft. I could take a look at them next winter and get a feel for how quickly they are wearing.
I am confident that it is gear oil that I smelled in the clutch slave. So I hope that it's just part #2 that I need. Doesn't look too bad.


The play was where the final drive meets the rear wheel fork. I picked up the two tapered bearings yesterday, just in case. I'll be working on that today.

Judging by the looks of the clutch disk, I think I would at least change that. The splines on the shaft are worn, but serviceable. The same can't be said for the clutch. I don't think it is going to last very long. When it fails, it will take the splines on the shaft out with it. then your stuck with an expensive and time consuming repair. Just my 2 cents worth.
Don

OK - I cleaned up the splines on both sides to take a closer look. I was hoping to confirm my belief that they were OK, but owldaddy is right. I didn't realize that the tops of the spline teeth were supposed to be SQUARE . I took some better pics. Sorry about the crud, it's impossible to get it all off.


There is also a sharp metal edge on each tooth.

No more wheelies for me. (not on this bike anyway)

The input shaft is a little better:


I could replace both, but it looks like I'm going to have to accept the fact that these will wear. Having to replace both every 35k is not an option I'm interested in.

So it's back to Bob's tomorrow to get a clutch and maybe a clutch slave.

Sometimes I'm hard headed and need to hear sensible advice a couple times before it sinks in. I'll be replacing the input shaft as well. Any suggestions on improving the alignment between the cases?
Thanks!
A

AndyRR wrote:Sometimes I'm hard headed and need to hear sensible advice a couple times before it sinks in. I'll be replacing the input shaft as well. Any suggestions on improving the alignment between the cases?
Thanks!
A

Andy, take a look at this thread. Terry has some pictures uploaded to flckr that explain what he did to fix his alignment. I had a R1150R that had a clutch like yours after only 10K. I put in a new clutch but did nothing else and sure enough at 17K I was getting sticky downshifts. I just traded the damn thing for a F800ST a few days back. I love working on bikes but did not care to spend my time fixing somebody elses screwup.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/u ... Post430613

Andy

My appologies regarding the one vehicle and high mileage reference, as I got you confused with another board member.

The following thread might can provide you with the issues surrounding this problem

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13563&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... 86#p121250

Best of luck.......

It's odd that BMW has (and has had) wear problems in this area. Cars with standard shift and a similar dry clutch set up never seem to have this problem The disc friction material wears out, but I've never seen the input shaft splines wear out or even need periodotic lubing. What gives, BMW?? Inferior metalurgy maybe??

Btw, Andy, no way I would go through all of that labor and not go back with all the best new components I could find. As the saying goes, "Buy quality, and only cry once"

AndyRR-

Glad you're considering the replacement of both splined shaft and the clutch disc, as they look pretty ragged to me after only 36k miles.

CycleRob puts it so well in his latest post within the "Clutch Spline Failure Analysis" thread:

Denial and lack of support from BMW for this embarrassing, expensive, buzzkilling DEFECT is unconscionable.

Hate to admit it, but the spline and rear drive defects have permanently soured my opinion of the marque.

Does AndyRR's experience represent a spline failure waiting to happen, as has been discussed so often, or, is this normal wear and tear?
If the latter, it would seem that around 40k--where my bike is now--would be a prudent idea to tear the whole thing down and replace?

And Andy, was your bike giving you any of the symptoms, like difficult down-shifting between 3rd and second?

John

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Does AndyRR's experience represent a spline failure waiting to happen, as has been discussed so often, or, is this normal wear and tear?
If the latter, it would seem that around 40k--where my bike is now--would be a prudent idea to tear the whole thing down and replace?

And Andy, was your bike giving you any of the symptoms, like difficult down-shifting between 3rd and second?

John

That is throw it away time. Do not reassemble in that condition. If you put a new clutch on that shaft then you just screw it up with a worn out drive spline. NO OPTION.

I had no spline related symptoms. This was purely a preventative undertaking and at best, just a spline lube.
This is far from normal wear and tear. The splines should outlast everything else on the bike.
Hard to say how much further it would have gone, but total failure was imminent. For most it was in the 40k range when it happened.
Picked up the new input shaft, clutch, and a couple bearings on Friday. Yesterday I separated the swingarm from the transmission. Even when heated to 250f the bearing studs do not give up easy. This is a newly twisted 12mm allen key. I haven't been able to find a 12mm socket locally, but I'll need one to properly torque these when they go back in.


The two halves split easily. I was surprised to see that there is no gasket material between the halves.



I had to stop here to do my Valentines day duties:




Now it's back to work for me.

well, then the next question is: at 40k, should the splines be inspected? and replaced if it is even imagined they are showing sig wear?

How many hours of shop time does this involved?

about a $2k job? or less??

My Stella! is running (and shifting) flawlessly, but I am planning a big trip west in May, probably 8-9k miles. I really do not want to break down along the way. She was born in Apr '04

Dr. Strangelove wrote:well, then the next question is: at 40k, should the splines be inspected? and replaced if it is even imagined they are showing sig wear?

How many hours of shop time does this involved?

about a $2k job? or less??

My Stella! is running (and shifting) flawlessly, but I am planning a big trip west in May, probably 8-9k miles. I really do not want to break down along the way. She was born in Apr '04

My opinion is obviously yes. I too have a long trip planned this summer. Wanted to use the winter months to take care of this.
I'm taking some measurements of the play in a new vs old clutch / spline assy. I hope to make them meaningful so that hopefully the play can be measured at the flywheel from under the starter. So far I can say that there is approx 0.4 degrees of rotational freeplay in a new, DRY assembly. It will be less after lubrication. I'll add the diameter of the flywheel and the freeplay in my old setup later.

Not sure what the shop charges would be. Probably under $1000 for spline lube. Closer to 2k if the clutch and input shaft have to go. Call and ask.

I hate to say it, but I had zero shifting problems.

I know the various spline and final drive issues have been beat to death, in this and other forums. And no doubt there are some problems; I myself having had to replace the FD bearing (not the whole FD). But how much it internet exaggeration and how much is normal failure rates, we have no way of knowing, since the info needed to calculate a percentage is not available to us.

well, then the next question is: at 40k, should the splines be inspected? and replaced if it is even imagined they are showing sig wear?

But I do know this, if a $1,000 inspection or $2,000 repair is ever considered normal for a BMW at 40,000 miles, my next bike will be something else!

AndyRR - nice thread and great pics. And it is wonderful that you have the skills to do this yourself. But even with a FD problem, doing this at 40K is not something I would consider routine or normal. My hope is that mine was one of a small percentage of failures. And at 45K, I would not hesitate to take off on a long trip without doing even a spline lube. If it fails on the trip, I use the tow coverage with the MOA membership or AMA and get home and prepare to buy a Suzuki!

I am interested to see the rest of the repair though! Nice work so far!

I started getting the heebijeebies (doubts!!) at the end of my first year of ownership of my Rockster (which was bought from a BMW dealer). I received a nice letter from the BMW people asking if I would like to take out mechanical insurance for the following year. I've forgotton the exact price, but it was around £500. Mechanical insurance on my BMW 530 Sport Touring would cost less, if I chose to take it. It made me wonder (even at that time when I did not know anything of these reliability issues) why the cost was quite so high. Hmmmm. I've been self-employed far too long; I'm becoming cynical.

Ride safely,

Rog