BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

Started my r this morning to head to work. 03 with 37000 miles.
Cranked over unusually (I say that because it sounded different than ever before) When it fired up the engine knocked horribly. Immediately shut it down and let it sit for a moment and looked at the oil sight glass. Oil level is fine. Was running great when I parked it after riding it saturday.
Restarted it after a few minutes and it cranked as if there was not quite as much compression (seemed to spin a little easier) Finally started and ran again with some knocking although not quite as loudly and really seemed as if the knock was coming from the right hand side of the engine. Again shut it down and left it since I had to get to work. Will take another look this evening. Up until this morning I have never had any problems with the bike in nearly 5 years. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions?

I have a feeling I am about to put my "wrenching skills" to the test.

Wayne

I heard a similar terrible story from a guy who bought this cheap bike
because of the engine knock and it turned out to be the cam chain setup.

Interesting...

I'm sure you already have a plan in place, so here are my thoughts:

When you initially started the bike, did you notice if the oil pressure light went out?

I would first pull both valve covers and check the following:

1) check the valves while turning the engine over manually. Make sure the valve lock nuts are in place and the valves are at or near spec. Ensure you can see the exhaust and intake valves open and close.

2) While the valve covers are off, check to see if the cam tensioner is in place.

3) Pull each spark plug and check them for damage.

4) Pull the right side cam chain tensioner (you'll need to remove the headers) and make sure the spring and the piston are okay. Do this: with the right side tensioner out, fill the tensioner body with oil and reinstall. Start the bike and see if the noise goes away, only to return a little later. Don't ask me how I know this

Have you done anything recently to the bike?

ProductUser

I appreciate the response---no I have not done anything in terms of service since 34000 miles (probably two months ago when I changed oil and filter) running syntec 5/50, been changing at 5K intervals since this past winter.
The oil pressure light did go out after starting. I went home a short bit ago to look at it again for a few minutes. It started fairly normally and was reasonably quiet at idle. Just slightly above idle the knocking sounds gets more apparent. Difficult to really tell if it's one side of the engine or the other. I'm wondering about the cam tensioner issue. The engine has run flawlessly until this morning. I last adjusted valves probably at 24K as best I recall. I have it logged in the book but don't have it in front of me right now.

My intentions are to pull the valve covers this evening and do all that you have mentioned.

For what it's worth---until this past winter I have been running Castrol 20/50 every 3K till one real cold morning. Wouldn't start due to extreme cold so at the advice of CycleRob I changed to Castrol Syntec 5/50 to aid the cold weather starting.

What are symtoms of the cam chain tensioner problem?

The 5/50 oil may be your problem. I would switch to 15/50 or 20/50 and see if that resolves the noise issue. Switch oil once everything else checks out.

I have read that the right side tensioner will make noise when using light weight oil. The spring, along with the oil pressure, does not provide enough tension for the chain guide. I've read that someone actually used small washers (type unknown) within the piston. That provided additional tension to the spring, thus eliminating the noise. If I recall correctly, the tensioner should provide around 8lbs of tension against the chain guide.

During cold morning starts, I depress the clutch handle. This prevents the engine from turning the tranny gears, which are in very thick oil. Yes, I live in the desert, but it does get mighty cold in the high country

ProductUser

towerworker

Don't know your driving habits, but based on mileage, a piece of carbon might have dislodged from the piston top/head and that is what is tumbling around the cylinder until it breaks down and gets past the exhaust valve......check the plugs as sugested by ProductUser.

Just my 2 cents...........

I appreciate the suggestions guys---I guess I would not be an extremely aggressive driver but I do try to run it hard on a regular basis. I have also occasionally run some Seafoam in the tank as prescribed by some members here. I wondered if it may be carbon buildup. I will pull the plugs first thing this evening when I get home and check those out. They have around 12K on them I think so they are probably due for replacement but still run strong (at least until this morning!)

I have read of the cam tensioner issue here but this is a solid knock and not just a rattle.

Wayne

towerworker wrote:
I have read of the cam tensioner issue here but this is a solid knock and not just a rattle.

Wayne --

I know it's a knock; I've experienced the same thing myself. It's very loud and down right scary. You're going to force me to explain how I know this

Tony

Allright Tony

I'm trying to force you to explain how you know this!

You can either call me --540-294-3325 (after 7 est) or email me at [email protected]

Thanks
Wayne

Here's why I know about your knocking:

Back when I had the left cam chain tensioner upgraded, I also bought what I thought was an OE right side tensioner. At the time of the purchase, I only replaced the left cam chain tensioner as it was the only side making that awful ticking noise.

About two years ago, my right side tensioner started making that awful ticking sound once the engine oil heated up (I'm running 15/50 oil). After reading several posts and discussions from other BMW techs, the culprit pointed to the rocker arm clearances. Several people had success in eliminating the right side noise by reducing the rocker arm clearances to the min spec. However, my rocker arm end clearances were close to the min side of allowable range. Rather than mess with the rocker clearances, I decided to leave well enough alone.

Now, since I already had a replacement ride side tensioner, why not replace it, right? What could possibly go wrong. I knew that the right side tensioner is bathed in oil and that no one has really said that the right side tensioner was an issue. What do they know! Once I pulled the right side tensioner out, the piston had some wear and the spring was a little shorter than the replacement. This made sense since the bike had some 55k miles. The right side tensioner's housing looked almost exactly the same (this will come back to haunt me). Once I replaced the right side tensioner, buttoned everything back up, it was time to start the engine. Holy crap! The knocking was horrific! I killed the engine immediately. I removed the right side tensioner, figuring that I just needed to fill the housing with oil. After I reinstalled the tensioner for a second time, the engine started with ease and the knock and the annoying tick was gone. Hurray!!!

Not so fast....
I took the bike out for a spin. After about 7 miles, the horrific knock was back. I was just about to role up to my house when this happened. I killed the engine and removed the right side tensioner again. I knew that that cause of the knock was due to the lack of oil pressure within the cam chain tensioner housing. I compared the old and new tensioner housings. The oil hole was clear and in the same position. However, the new tensioner housing had 1 1/2 more threads than the old one. It didn't make much sense since both housings were the exact height.

Finally...
I used the new piston and spring in the old housing. Yippie!! Nice and quiet until the engine oil heated up and the ticking was back in full force.

Next:
After ruling out the right side throttle body, I'm going to move to 20/50 oil. Other folks have had success by moving to a slightly thicker oil. I really shouldn't obsess about the ticking sound, however, I have too much time on my hands and it's now becoming a challenge.

Solutions???
Like I pointed out in an earlier post, some people have had success by using a slightly thicker engine oil (20/50); others have had success by rebuilding the right throttle body; others have had success by adjusting the rocker arm clearances to the low end of the spec; others have had success by placing washers in the cam tensioner housing to increase the tension against the chain rail.

Net-net...
I don't know your exact cause of the knock, but the items that have been outlined in this thread are easy to check and only cost time.


There, I said it!

Tony

Well, tried adjusting the valves just for grins. No internal obvious evidence of problems. Changed oil and went back to 20/50.
Knock is still there. Not quite as loud but very apparent that it's from the right side of engine.

Would a can chain tensioner on right side cause this?

Wayne

Wayne --

I posted your problem on the BMW ST site. There are a bunch of really smart guys there that may be able to help.

Go to this site to see their responses:BMW Sport Touring.

Tony

towerworker,

If you notice a faster spin because of an apparent loss of compression, along with a LOUD banging knock, those are the symptoms of a stuck valve. It's almost always an intake valve and the problem first begins at cold engine startup. The valve sticks in the open position, then the piston hammers it shut. The banging is so loud it is alarming. It occurs at the same frequency (hits) as of the cylinder firing. It can also be, like Boxermania said, a carbon chunk holding a valve open -if- the banging you hear sounds like the loud tapping of very very loose valve clearance.

The causes of a stuck valve are:
1- Using too much FI or carb cleaner in the fuel tank. It washes away the normal but marginal intake valvestem oil film and the dry sliding surfaces score so badly the intake valve cannot be closed by the valve spring. Then the piston hits it shut. Ouch.

2- Oil additives (like STP) cause the valve seals to swell and grab the stems so tightly that no oil lubrication gets by, then (see #1)

3- Sometimes it just happens because of guide seals that work too well.


If the banging was only more than a few seconds, then the valve may not be bent yet. If it does get bent, the engine won't idle. I would not blame the 5W-50 oil since it's low viscosity would deliver more lube to far away crowded places, not less. That, plus the many trouble free years of use in my Nissan 4 cylinder truck & my 1150R. The 5W-50 means it is 5 weight at 32DegF and 50 weight at 210DegF. It's only thinner at very cold temps. With a hot engine, it IS just like 50 weight oil.


The Fix.
The head will have to come off to replace the valve, guide and (why not) all 4 seals.

My diagnosis is correct if your noise is an alarmingly loud banging. I hope it is like Boxermania suggested instead.

I will call you tomorrow (Thursday) after 7pm and we can talk.

That sounds like a good enough reason NOT to use STP or Carb Clean products.

Anyone mentioned that it might be a failed primary plug cap/coil??

Easy to check.

Start bike and pull off the seconday plug cap on the suspect cylinder. if the engine immediately struggles and stalls, it's very likely that the primary plug cap/coil has failed.

To confirm : swap the two primary plgu cap/coils over and pull the secondary plug cap off again from the same side as before. If the bike continues to tick over ok, replace the cap and try the other side (the side that now has the suspect primary cap/coil). If it again struggles and stalls it's deffo the primary plug cap/coil.

This is all very interesting as we have had some unexplained knocking on Mary's new (8K) R1200S that has come and gone a couple of times. I thought it was a carbon problem but don't know for sure. BMW Milwaukee checked the valve clearances and they were good. As of now, its quiet again, hot or cold. And it runs hard. What an engine !

geo

The guy that shimmed the right tensioner replied:

I'm the guy that shimmed the tensioner to eliminate the noise. Has the tensioner been replaced? If you pull the valve cover and check the position of the tensioner you might see that it is collapsed. (The chain guide will be all the way down.) You can easily shim the tensioner to determine if that is the source of the noise.

You might look at this before you start pulling the head off.

Tony

I had every intention of pulling the tensioner (right side) this evening after getting home but turned out to be a long hot day and so my resolve went out the window.
At this point I will try to pull it tomorrow eve and I hope you guys are right. I have my fingers crossed.

The engine runs fairly quiet at idle and get scary as you increase rpm. It really sounds much louder on the right side. I have only run it a couple of times and then just for 10 to 15 seconds each time when trying to determine the side.

Rob--thanks for the call today---if it's not the tensioner then I hope your diagnosis is the correct one. I can see myself pulling the head much sooner than the engine! I will let you guys know what happens.

Rob--Rosa and I are going out on a date tomorrow eve so depending on her choice of attire for the evening the bike may have to wait till sat!

Wayne

Riceburner--

I apologize for not responding to your suggestion in my earlier post. My bike is a single spark so that hopefully eliminates that possibility.

I have never run STP or fuel additives. I do try to run Shell or BP and nearly always 89 octane. I have occasionally put in a couple ounces of Seafoam with a full tank but it's been quite some time since I last did that.

Thanks!

Wayne

Here's an update on my R:

Pulled valve covers and went thru valve adjust procedure, did not find anything obviously amiss. Did a compression check and both cylingers were within 5psi of each other. Hopefully that tells me that it's not a bent valve issue or something similar. Dropped headers and pulled the cam chain tensioner on the right hand side as the knock seemed to be from that side. Tensioner looked ok but I went ahead and cleaned it and stretched the spring out about 3/16", refilled with oil and re-installed.

Put it all back together and restarted the engine. The knock or noise is I think still there but not as apparent. Spoke to CycleRob on the phone and even held the phone up to the cylinder and revved the engine so he could hear (hopefully) the noise. Reminded me of my days many, many years ago when I was in the car business and told a fella to back his car up to the phone and rev the engine so I could hear it!

Anyway still something not quite right so at Rob's advice I am going to truck it to my dealer hopefully next weekend and have their mechanic listen to it and give me some direction

I will post more as I make progress (good progress I hope!)

Wayne