Another ABS question

[dallara]

jimcameron said:

Do I encounter riders that may have an over inflated opinion of their riding skills which translates into sarcastic comments about safety equipment? Frequently.

You're kidding, right?

So a rider who thinks BMW's servo-assisted ABS system is ludicrous, overly complex, causes more problems than it solves, is riduclously expensive, is an answer to a question nobody ever asked, and is a serious detrimental drawback to a serious, experienced, well practiced rider... and as such makes a sarcastic comment to all those who buy into BMW's hyperbolic marketing hype hook, line, and sinker... have over-inflated opinions of their riding skills?

Geez...

Well, I guess you better lump me in with those "over inflated" types then, Mr. Safety.

But I will take my 35 years of riding, and 22 years of motorcycle racing (with the Pro and Expert licenses to go with it, BTW...), and my right two forefingers over your over-hyped, overly-complex, over-priced, over-trusted BMW servo-assist ABS any day of the week and nine times on Sunday - rain or shine.

Wow, all those years I spent riding bikes, and only three drops on the street (none of which had anything to do with brakes, BTW...). Guess I really don't know what I am doing, or how blatantly unsafe I really am, eh? Gee, I am soooooooooooooooooooo *STUPID* compared to you, Mr. Safety... Guess I should run out, fall down on the alter of BMW ABS safety and beg forgiveness for my obvious sins...

Hey, Jim... Let's go riding together sometime... The twistier road the better... In fact, let's get together and see who can stop their bike the quickest. You game?

Dallara

[wncbmw]

Hay Dallara - do you think it might be possible to share some of your experience and expertise with some of the less skilled board members without the soapbox, insults to anyone who happens to have ABS and constant listing of your accomplishments in racing?

I am sure in person, you are a fine fellow but frankly, this anti-ABS crusade and the insulting attitude to anyone who has ABS (they don't even have to disagree with to be insulted) is a little tiresome to me.

[dallara]

Sorry WNCBMW...

But I find comments like:

Do I encounter riders that may have an over inflated opinion of their riding skills which translates into sarcastic comments about safety equipment? Frequently.

Insulting and condescending as all get out, personally.

Why is it than when anyone says *ANYTHING* negative about BMW's crappy ABS system that folks like you take it as a personla crusade?

Honestly, I find it rather goofy that so many riders come flocking to the defense of BMW's servo-assisted system incredibly naive, especially when they don't know how, and perhaps never have taken the time to learn, proper braking techniques in the first place. People around here can prattle endlessly about the 60,000 miles they put on their Roadster and how fas tthey ride, but if I mention I spent an awful lot of time racing it is somehow getting on a soapbox?

Why the double standard?

I see more misinformation on riding on this board than I would care ot comment on... And if I did comment on it I would be roundly chastised by some as being "boastful", etc. at the very least, and threatened with being banned at the worst.

But you know, I really don't care any more. I have probably been insulted more than anyone around here, but I am not so insecure that I take those to heart. I speak my mind plainly, and bluntly... And if that offends some folks delicate sensibilities, then so be it.

Misinformation is just that... Misinformation. If you like it, fine. I don't.

And if you think I am the only one who feels this way, just ask Darthrider, or Dean, or Bones, or Acacia, or dozens of others I could easily name.

*TRUE* safety is learning how to ride your bike properly, and with the proper techniques. Thinking a frickin' *BAND-AID* like ABS is going ot somehow "save you" is ridiculous in the extreme... And the real problem with BMW's ABS is that it makes it *COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE* to ever learn proper braking techniques, period.

I can't say it any plainer than that.

If that suggests an "over inflated opinion" of my riding skills, then so be it. Only thing is (and you learn this from racing) that being well practiced and well skilled *IS* what gives you confidence, and being confident is a good thing. Ask any racer. You can't win without it.

I *HAVE*, on numerous occasions, posted about how to learn, practice, and hone proper braking techniques... But obviously you missed it.

I'm tired of repeating it.

Dallara

[gearhead]

The merits of abs and non abs are a matter of opinon. To humbly state an opinion is always a good thing! I personally love the abs servo assist for everyday riding. Racing on a track or thur the hills at hight speeds may be another story. I will race anyone of you right now, but only in a straight line!!!

[MikeCamm]

Playhouse, now, both of you![/code]

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ok, what I've gleaned from this discussion is:
of course learning and practicing proper braking technique is something all riders should aspire to.
and
ABS may help in rare, but not impossible, situations. IN addition, not everyone who rides will achieve perfection in all circumstances, though there may be some who come real close. Though I'd want it to be and would strive for that, that won't be me.

I have had ABS on my cars for years. I drive somewhat agressively and well--I have only been in one accident- rear-ended at age 16. It is very rare that I feel the ABS engage, but when it does, it has never caused a problem.

Are those anti-abs people saying that ABS is a laudable (or not) idea/technology whose time has not yet come?


Good discussion, btw, and many thanks.

John

[MikeCam]

Dr. StrangeJohn, if I may attempt to answer.

Since cycles are two wheeled and need gyroscopic forces to operate on the 'up and up' so to speak, the comparisons to auto ABS is not completely appropriate.

Many find the ABS + servo-assist + partially linked features to be objectionable, lack feel, problematic.

Some find the ABS, by itself, poorly implemented.

Those with high degrees of motorcycling skills, especially racers, can do better than ABS by applying their knowledge, skills, abilities, and experiences very well.

I say these things not to lecture you, since your post indicates you already get it, but to pre-empt the potential for this thread to go into the tail-spin these topics sometimes take.

"All the brothers are honorable; all the sisters are virtuous."

[jim cameron]

Sorry WNCBMW...

But I find comments like:

Do I encounter riders that may have an over inflated opinion of their riding skills which translates into sarcastic comments about safety equipment? Frequently.

Insulting and condescending as all get out, personally.

Dallara

You find it personally insulting and condescending? Did you read the thread? My response was directed at Boxer as a result of his rant at my favorable opinion of ABS. Tragically, inspite of your prowess in the areas of riding, racing, stopping, braking, running the twisties and all things motorcycle, in my 40 years of riding, no offense, but I never heard of you. No doubt my loss and your gain.

Do I encounter riders that MAY have an over inflated opinion of their riding skills that translates into sarcasim? Yep, I freguently meet riders that in spite of limited tenure mock helmets, my Stich (although it does admitadley get hot in the Summer), MSF courses, Hi-Viz lights, decals, etc. Although I must admit that most of the sarcasim is light hearted and generally in the name of good fun. Rarely do I encounter riders that are so deeply insulted by the defense of my opinions.

In the future, before I express an opinion, or defend one previously expressed, I will pause and consider whether or not it will offend you, your knowledge, skill, ability, experience as well as your acknowledged challenge to show me what's what on the road, and I promise to be much more circumspect in what I say.

[Boxer]

My response was directed at Boxer as a result of his rant at my favorable opinion of ABS.

Wrong Jim. I did not rant against YOU. I ranted against a "guest" and had I known it was a member of the board in good standing... ...merely expressing an opinion, I probably would not have even thought you might be a dreaded insurance salesman.

[dallara]

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy...

I like Boxer, so a swipe at him is like taking one at me. In fact, I like all skilled and practiced riders, and since you took a swipe at them, too, I thought your flippant retort was insulting and condescending of any rider who had the confidence enough in their ability to not rely on some German engineer and his overly complex band-aid to do their stopping for them.

As for never hearing of me, that's no big deal... Ask guys like Kent Howerton, Stevie Wise, Steve Stackable, Tony DiStefano, etc. if they heard of me in the dirt, or guys like Freddie Spencer, Doug Polen, Kevin Schwantz, John Kocinski, etc. if they remember me from their WERA racing days down here in Texas. I'll go with their judgement and appraisal, thankyouverymuch...

You can ramble about all you wish, but it won't change two things...

1.) BMW's servo-assisted ABS is overly complex, poorly implemented, over-priced, hideously expensive to repair and maintain, grabby, noisy, an answer to a question nobody ever asked, destroys braking feel, forces a change in riding habits so that their brakes are different than any other bike manufactured in the world, and make it literally impossible to learn or practice proper braking techniques... The system is so bad that BMW is now trying to quietly distance themselves from it little by little... Just ake a look at the new R1200S and the F800's... No servos. Wonder why?

2.) Boxer is a really good guy.

Have a nice day!

Dallara

[Gord]

...this anti-ABS crusade and the insulting attitude to anyone who has ABS (they don't even have to disagree with to be insulted) is a little tiresome to me.

Well I recall one time when Dallara actually said that I might have a valid reason for having purchased ABS on my 2004 RR.

[wncbmw]

Well Dallara - you misread what I said. I will agree with you on a few things about the ABS. The servos are not my favorite thing (OK, they are irritating sometime ). I fear a future expensive future non-warranty repair. There is much that can be improved. But I don't think they have become a crutch nor have I used them as a reason not to practice, although I could not claim your apparent skills.

But honestly, I have not noticed the ABS in two years of ownership, except for the servo noise. Perhaps it is because I am a chicken rider!

I just think you are a little too excitable on the issue, that is all. You seem eager to paint anyone who has ABS or says anything at all nice about it with the same brush. Lighten up a little, man. You have some good information, if people don't tune you out!

Oh, and we agree on one other thing. Boxer is a good guy. And he knows how I ride!

[Paul Mihalka]

jimcameron said:

Do I encounter riders that may have an over inflated opinion of their riding skills which translates into sarcastic comments about safety equipment? Frequently.

You're kidding, right?

So a rider who thinks BMW's servo-assisted ABS system is ludicrous, overly complex, causes more problems than it solves, is riduclously expensive, is an answer to a question nobody ever asked, and is a serious detrimental drawback to a serious, experienced, well practiced rider... and as such makes a sarcastic comment to all those who buy into BMW's hyperbolic marketing hype hook, line, and sinker... have over-inflated opinions of their riding skills?

Geez...

Well, I guess you better lump me in with those "over inflated" types then, Mr. Safety.

But I will take my 35 years of riding, and 22 years of motorcycle racing (with the Pro and Expert licenses to go with it, BTW...), and my right two forefingers over your over-hyped, overly-complex, over-priced, over-trusted BMW servo-assist ABS any day of the week and nine times on Sunday - rain or shine.

Wow, all those years I spent riding bikes, and only three drops on the street (none of which had anything to do with brakes, BTW...). Guess I really don't know what I am doing, or how blatantly unsafe I really am, eh? Gee, I am soooooooooooooooooooo *STUPID* compared to you, Mr. Safety... Guess I should run out, fall down on the alter of BMW ABS safety and beg forgiveness for my obvious sins...

Hey, Jim... Let's go riding together sometime... The twistier road the better... In fact, let's get together and see who can stop their bike the quickest. You game?

Dallara

Well, I guess I will have to give a opinion from the other side of the isle to rider companions Dallara and Boxer.
As these gentleman's riding background and experience has come up in this conversation a few times, I'll have describe a bit of my background. I'm afraid it may sound like bragging, but I do it to establish some credibility. My riding starts much earlier than most of who are riding/writing/reading on this forum.
As refugees from Hungary my family moved to Venezuela in 1947, when I was 16 years old. I got interested (understatement) in motorcycles. Started racing. Was Venezuelan roadracing champion in1953/4/5 on a 350cc Velocette KTT and 500cc Gilera Saturno Corsa. Was 350cc South American champion with the Velocette. Stopped racing (had to get a life) but staid involved in racing, organizing, training new riders. Was very involved in the training of Daytona 200 winner and multiple World Champion Johnny Cecotto (used to race against his dad) and 250cc World Champion Carlos Lavado. Moved to the USA in 1982. Picked up working at BMW dealerships as my "retirement job" and I am still doing it. To maintain my edge, I did over 20 Reg Pridmore CLASS track days. The last one was in 2001 at age 70 and I was not the slowest guy on the track. I'm also a high mileage long distance rider, with over 900K just on BMWs.

Now about ABS: I agree that a well trained rider on a planned stop on a dry good surface can outbrake ABS. I know I can. But a unplanned sudden emergency stop on a lousy (wet, sandy, gravel, etc) surface I know I could not outbrake ABS. I would or not use all the available traction and take longer to stop, or land on my butt. I remember a couple of occasions where ABS definitely saved my paint and butt. I could live without ABS, I did. I would be happy without servo and/or integrated brakes. But there is a problem: The Dallara's, Boxer's, some others and may be myself are a very-very small piece of the motorcycle riding world. Selling BMW bikes for the last 20+ years I get in touch with a great cross section of riders. Most of them, even BMW riders, will never get to the point of expert riders. Saying that they should does not make it happen. Riding 4 or 5 thousand leasurely miles a year won't make it. But they also have emergency highway stops, gravel etc. ABS is not a save-it-all but it is a save-some. They need all the help they can get. Even the much maligned fully integrated brakes of K1200LT, R1200C and R1150RT are a blessing to the riders coming from the cruiser world who mostly all they know is stepping on the pedal. Yes, they should learn. Most of them won't. BMW and others are not designing all their bikes for the Dallara's and Boxer's of this world. There is not enough of them. They are designing for the average rider so he can stay alive and buy a second one.

[wncbmw]

Yes, they should learn. Most of them won't.

Unfortunately, Paul, you are correct. Most of us will not do sufficent training to become as proficient as we could in riding, be it because of time, money or laziness.

This sort of reminds me of debates on gun forums. Some will hail the faithful Model 1911 as the greatest combat handgun of all time, something I would probably agree with. But if a new shooter asks for a recommendation for a first time gun purchase, the 1911 is probably not the right choice, because it takes some training to handle it safely, know what to do with malfuctions and shoot it accurately. Most people will not make that committment to training. For those people, a revolver is the answer.

ABS is like that revolver. Simple enough to be used by a beginner but also capable of great performance in the hands of a someone who knows what to do with it.

Of course, all this on only my opionion, worth what you paid for it!

[Boxer]

Paul, I am impressed with your background. I have said many times that I wish I had taken the time and and had the courage in my youthful years to be a racer. But alas...

Oh, and one correction. Nobody has said so far that I am a "good" rider. Only that they like me. Which counts for a whole lot, in my book.

I don't have ABS and have survived without it for this long only because I don't take many chances and I know my limitations. Not because I'm an "expert" rider like you and Dallara.

Also, ABS won't even help you if you aren't looking where you're going. Right Vann?

[darthrider]

Paul -
You were already one of my heroes just because you are an old fart and still riding! And that's about all I knew of you.
I have a number of heroes in that category and am getting to be one myself as I rocket down the slopes of the "wrong" side of the mountain.
But Sir, thank you very much for filling us in on your background and racing accomplishments.
I didn't know the champions you named but I knew of all of them and I am familiar, to a degree with the bikes you named.
And of course, another hero of mine...Mr. Reg Pridmore. I had been riding and racing motorcycles for 35 years when I took his CLASS school on my Ducati Super Sport but I can truthfully say that he is the man who taught me how to ride a motorcycle!
I would love to hear more from you and about the racing days and all that.
And much more about the insights and treasure of information and experience you have accumulated in these "few years" you've been at it!

[wncbmw]

Also, ABS won't even help you if you aren't looking where you're going. Right Vann?

You know Phil, you are always the one mentioning that, not me!

[leno]

Hay Dallara - do you think it might be possible to share some of your experience and expertise with some of the less skilled board members without the soapbox, insults to anyone who happens to have ABS and constant listing of your accomplishments in racing?

At a guess I would say the answer would be no, not this side of hell freezing.

[Boxer]

You know Phil, you are always the one mentioning that, not me!

I know! I just have to keep laughing about it to keep from bemoaning the possible outcome. It must have been one heck of a show for that guy in the van behind us.

[kernpanix]

I've driven my R1150R both with and without ABS (temporary issue I had with the battery). I say ABS is definitely worth the extra $$. It is extra safety and provides a great response in case of emergency stops. I can safely say that it saved my bike at least once, while riding around wreckless car drivers in the city.