BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

inflation, Dallara.....$.03

I am neutral on ABS/servo vs standard brakes. My R1150R is standard and my ST has ABS/servo brakes. My RR brakes are fantastic and my ST brakes are unbeliveable. With the ST my speeds seem to be er uah ammmm.....slightly faster and being an old fart......I feel comfortable with the controllability and power of the ST brakes. I have never had a chance to ride any earlier BMW form of ABS/servo brakes. The K1200S that I had the er um chance to put on about 200 miles in the Santa Cruz mountains were equally fantastic.

Oh darn, I will be at San Jose next wednesday and will be forced to spend another two days in the Santa Cruz mountains and up and down Hwy 1
on San Jose's demo K1200R, This retirement thing is tuff, tuff, I say, its a struggle ........but I can handle it.

Hey! I was on;ly a little sarcastic!

The funny thing is that I could care less if people like or dislike ABS.

I'm not even a staunch customer.

My ABS (and servo assist for that matter) have worked fine and haven't caused me any problems, but that is hardly an advertisement for someone else to go out and buy the system. I don't know that I would spend the $2k again.

Anyway, my sarcasm was only to show that internet stories don't prove anything one way or the other.

Own a 2005 r1150r with abs and find it incredible. The ABS brakes have saved me numerious times from idiot drivers on the road, to animals all of a sudden crossing the road while i'm doing 120 KM. I don't believe most of these stories going on. These brakes are incredible, and I would not be able to ride in peace without them.

i did a search and turned up nothing. this thread got me to thinking...is there any way to turn the servo assist on and off? that would be nice. when i'm doing parking lot racing and going slow the brakes are kind of touchy. would be nice if i could turn the servos off sometimes.

Do a search on the sport touring board by a guy named Ophra Hazard, and you will see the person who I believe is responsible for all this much ado about nothing

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/d ... fromprof=1

I was really trying to stay out of this, but then this statement came along...

...for all this much ado about nothing

Now, RD, you know I luv', man, but why do propronents of BMW's Servo Assist ABS insist that any criticism of the system is "much ado about nothing"?

Do you folks *REALLY* believe that BMW knows something the entire rest of the motorcycling manufacturing industry does not about braking?

Do pro-servo assist riders really think the grabbiness, lack of brake feel, complexity, cost, etc. are simply figments of other riders' imaginations?

Do the servo-assist faithful truthfully contend that the entire motorcycling industry would just ignore and dismiss servo-assisted braking if it offered *ANY* advantages, and not be scrambling to develop such systems of their own if any advantages existed?

Does the servo-assist sufferage league steadfastly maintain that there are not very real, and very serious, potentials for disaster if the system fails in real-world traffic situations?

Do those same pro-servo-assist riders really think BMW has been completely honest, due diligent, and forthcoming with all the failure data on the systems over the years? (and don't forget the initial R-1150-RT debacle with system parameters drastically changed mid-model-year and BMW's refusal to retro-fit previous production with the newer components...)

Can the pro-servo-assist brigade tell me why one of BMW's next generations of their ABS removes the servo-assist completely?

Can the pro-servo-assist devotees tell me why if the failure rate/percentage of BMW's system is so low, and so insignificant, that BMW will not release any hard data on those percentages of failures?

"Much ado about nothing"?

Maybe to you, but IMHO any system that requires the rider to *adapt* to its idiosyncracies, quirks, feel, etc., and therefore actually have to *ride* somewhat differently than any other motorcycle brand in the world already has one major strike against it from the get-go...

But then I guess BMW, and BMW riders who champion BMW's servo-assisted system, simply *KNOW* more than the entire rest of the motorcycling industry and community, and more about riding, too, eh?

Cheers!

Dallara

Gord wrote:

Without some statistical measures, the ABS vs non-ABS issue will continue to be purely an emotional argument.

Bullseye! The ABS option seems to be one of those issues which evokes an emotional reaction. Once that reaction is made, we seek reasons to justify it. I think few people overturn their first emotional, gut level, reflexive choice regardless of the evidence.

I like the idea of ABS. My gut reaction is that it is a valuable innovation that should be pursued and continually perfected, so unless there is a strong body of evidence against it I will try it. As Gord pointed out, there is no real evidence either way, just hearsay. That leaves me with my own experience as my only guide. I don't like how it works in my Chevy truck where wet roads cause it to engage too easily, IMHO. I have had no problems with the ABS in the BMW or 2 Honda cars.

Dallara,

"Much Ado About Nothing" was a reference to all the posts from the guy who spammed various internet sites, and the resulting BMW response. It was not my intent to debate the pro's and con's of the ABS system, as this has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum.

The BMW response, sometimes called a "recall", is apparently to offer to do an inspection of the ABS system. I just checked the NHTSA web site, and there is no official recall related to brakes, at least not yet.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/probl ... esults.cfm

In fact, the only recall I saw related to 2002 R series bikes is for the fuel line clamps.
Results : 1 | All records displayed
Make : BMW Model : R SERIES Year : 2002
Manufacturer : BAYERISCHE MOTOREN WERKE
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 04V028000 Mfg's Report Date : JAN 15, 2004
Component: FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:DELIVERY:HOSES, LINES/PIPING, AND FITTINGS
Potential Number Of Units Affected : 39000

This brings up the point that our bikes, and their manufacturer, are not perfect. I hate the fact that I have to remove the gas tank to get to the battery for maintenance, or to do any electrical work such as adding accessories. This is a poor design, IMO. To further compound the problem, the quick disconnects appear to cause problems for a lot of us. For example, the O rings can get nicked and they will not seal properly. And the clamps are inadequate. Any number of issues can cause fuel to leak, which can cause a fire, and death or serious injury. The gas tank has to be removed on a regular basis, which means the fuel line disconnects have to be stressed on a regular basis, and they do not appear to be up to the task. The whole design makes you scratch your head and ask, "What were they thinking."

Again, I do not want to debate the relative merits of the ABS system. You do not like the implementation of the concept by BMW. I understand and respect that opinion. I think that, for me, the pro's outweigh the con's. I have experienced the con's first hand when one time in > 3 years I had residual braking. IMO, the braking was adequate and I did not have a safety issue. Of course, I adjusted my riding accordingly. Overall, however, I like the brakes very much.

GuestGuestGuest sounds alot like DrABS on several other forums. After looking at his (her?) posts on those forums it appears to me that he has an agenda to destroy BMW. His main gripe with the ABS system seems to be lack of brakes in case of failure. Has some stories of ABS failure where the rider says there was no, zero, residule braking.

I find that odd as I had an ABS fault that resulted in leaving me with residule only brakes. I came up to a stop light, braked with the front lever, I realized at the same time I saw the "ABS Failure" light that my brakes were not normal. I squeezed the lever a lot harder than normal & stopped. Have not had a fault before or since.

Every day riding to work I slip the bike in nuetral at the top of my office parking structure, turn the key off, & coast down a couple of levels with "residule" brakes so I get a good feel for them. Yesterday I did the same thing on a mountain road & coasted 4 or 5 miles at about 50 mph. I did a couple of fast stops. I find the residule brakes to be pretty wooden, but they do work. Does help to use the rear. Reminds me of the drum brakes in the 70's. I can easily lock up the rear wheel. I think they work better than car brakes without the engine on (no power boost). So I do think its a good idea if riders of ABS bikes do practice without the servos. I would be interested in being able to pull the ABS fuse & ride without them if I was sure it would not damage the ABS system.

I like the ABS brakes, I even, in my lack of experience way, like the servos. I am concerned about the difference in feel if the servos go out, it is a real issue. But I do think any rider that says there are no residule brakes is most likely mistaken. I understand the residule brakes meet British safty standards. The difference is feel is the problem, especially if the rider has not practiced with the residules. (be careful if you do what I do, turn the key off, that you don't lock the forks. Would not be good).

I do acknowledge some problems, mainly the potential for failure with the servos. The "lack of feel" issue does not bother me, but I acknowledge that it legitimately bothers some.

The bottom line for me is that I would buy a new generation BMW with servos/ABS again. I feel that statistically the system is more likely to save me than to kill me. The comparison is unfair, but like seatbelts. If you don't like the servo/ABS, don't buy a bike with it. If you like it, buy it (& it seems the cost these days on the new models is only about $900.) But don't ask BMW to pay for it if you change your mind. I think thats what DrABS is asking.

PS - if you think we have heated ABS discussions on this board, you havn't read the other boards. I appreciate the level of civility we have here.

............Iv'e come to this conclusion.....

Harley Davidson started the ABS rumors.......

............ and THEY....are removing their kill switches on the

new '06 models!.......

........... FYI........

Chirp

Holy Cow Dallara! My almost-3-ton SUV might be recalled for faulty ABS!

GM recalls 804,000 pickups, SUVs
Potential brake problems cited

Reuters
Updated: 10:12 a.m. ET Aug. 30, 2005


DETROIT - General Motors Corp. is recalling 804,000 full-size pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles because of potential brake problems, federal safety regulators said Tuesday.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said unwanted application of the antilock brake system in some vehicles can cause increased stopping distances during low-speed braking and may result in a crash.

Vehicles affected by the recall include the Chevrolet Avalanche and Silverado pickups and the Chevrolet Suburban and Tahoe SUVs. The GMC Sierra pickup and Yukon and Yukon XL SUVs are also affected. All 804,000 vehicles trucks are from the 1999-2002 model years, NHTSA said.
[edit]
Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.
© 2005 MSNBC.com

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9130169/

RDSmith3 wrote:

Holy Cow Dallara! My almost-3-ton SUV might be recalled for faulty ABS!

None of us are SAFE, RD !!!



Cheers!

Dallara

Dallara wrote:
Do those same pro-servo-assist riders really think BMW has been completely honest, due diligent, and forthcoming with all the failure data on the systems over the years? (and don't forget the initial R-1150-RT debacle with system parameters drastically changed mid-model-year and BMW's refusal to retro-fit previous production with the newer components...)

Dallara

Put me solidly in the pro-ABS column, and equally solidly among the considereable number of riders who think BMW made a mistake with the fully-linked RT system, and treated those who bought the early 02 RTs in shabby fashion. I believe the owner of the RT chat board has written that he won't own a fully-linked RT.

My criticism is only toward that fully-linked system. I bought an ABS roadster and am immensely happy with the partially- linked servo-assist system. It has one eccentricity which everyone who rides it should know. In hard braking on a rough surface, the ABS has been known to fully release and let the bike coast, at least briefly. This has happened to me twice on rough San Francisco streets. I don't particularly consider it dangerous but I know it can happen.

Dean, I deeply respect your knowledge and experience, and appreciate what you have done for the sport, even though you spanked me the last time I wrote on this subject. Please know that not everyone who dislikes the fullly-linked system is a nut case.

Of course I may be nuts anyway, but for other reasons.

I also think BMW screwed up with the fully linked system. Most people don't like it because of the issues at slow speed. But on the other had I can see where they were coming from. When I'm filtering in trafic on the way to work. I cover the rear brake because my hands are busy with the controls. And I could never get on the front brake quick enough. Just for that little bit of road I wish I could switch on full linked brakes. So I guess they thought with ABS and linked brakes you could just stomp on the brake and come to a nice calm stop.

I MUCH prefer the option of a fully linked front and control of the rear-brake-only via the peddle. On the other hand, a peddle operated fully-linked with the front-brake-only option (like my old Moto Guzzi) would be cool! Or the option of turning it off altogether would be nice too!!!

Wouldn't it be sweet if BMW could give us what H&K introduced in it's semi-autos?

With regard to servos, let's just say my ignorance has been the source of my bliss. My servos NEVER revealed themselves to me as grabby, touchy, noisy, annoying, etc.

...the ABS has been known to fully release and let the bike coast, at least briefly...

...I don't particularly consider it dangerous...

Hmmm...seems like coasting when you need to be braking would be dangerous by definition.

On the rough surfaces in question, when wheel hop locks the front, it's a choice of losing braking for a short period, or going down.

On the rough surfaces in question, when wheel hop locks the front, it's a choice of losing braking for a short period, or going down.

Yeah...two really great choices, an asphalt sandwich or smacking a Buick.