BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

I respect Boxermania (and Al, also) but I suggest that his paragraphs 1 through 5 represent a tautological fallacy and a suggestion of failure or fault that remains unproven.

Until real numbers of actual spline wear and tear are quantified against a mean time between failure and a practical analysis of performance, design, engineering, production, assembly and user activity are known, then what would BMW have any responsibility to do? 3yrs/36,000 miles.

From thousands of pages of talk, I discern no problem and certainly not a design flaw, assembly error, or company denial. What I see is a hint that the wear and tear on this sub-system of the drivetrain is less than owners wish it were. And that discounts the real possibility that user activity contributes to the problem.

Mike
I respect your perirectal opinion too.....and I know if it where to happen to you, you would grin and bear it....

As ironic as some may find this with my involvement in the spline failure posts, my '02 With just a hare over 9,000 miles has had no problems at all. I am concerned about the potential issues facing us all, especially after receiving parts from Boxermania this evening of a replaced Spline Shaft and Clutch. I'll most likely pull my bike apart well before the clutch fails (within 3k miles) and lube the shaft and replace the clutch disk. For any of you that might be interested, there will be a post soon with some pictures and dimensions and other miscellaneous data from the tear down of Obaid's 11,000 mile 2002.

Bike 2002
Miles 10,800 (bought with 7500 on it August/07)

I see no problem with splines do you?

2002 R1150R
Splines OK at 59,709 miles (96,092 km)
QD cracked and squirted me upon gentle disassembly a few months ago.


There are too many spline failures !!!

The Buell factory did major recalls with very expensive swingarm replacements on thousands of bikes without being forced to because they knew they made mistakes.

The BMW factory is in total denial of all the fragile substandard QD's, inadequate fuel line crimp clamps, short lived twinspark secondary coils and weak clutch shaft splines while charging premium MSRP for their bikes. I say the damage to their sales and reputation will be many times more costly than admitting to and promptly rectifying all their mistakes.

BMW's denial of the leaky fuel clamps and fracturing QD "problem" defies all logic. They were unmoved by the frequent possibility of high pressure fuel leaks WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING. Even after replacing many transmissions BECAUSE LEAKING GASOLINE DISCOLORED THEIR PAINT JOBS, the factory solution was a recall to check and re-squeeze the simplistically inadequate crimp clamps on all other bikes.

Maybe getting a new R1200R will solve all those problems.
Maybe not !!

.

oiasghar wrote:Bike 2002
Miles 10,800 (bought with 7500 on it August/07)

I see no problem with splines do you?

Is that some kind of trick question??

The teeth should look like a V not like the Matterhorn in my opinion the teeth are worn one third through
so the 40k mile scenario would be correct going by the picture and the time remaining, lucky you caught it.

MikeCam and Boxermania...................ya'll shore do know how to use dem big words!!

MikeCam wrote..... "Tautological"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up tautology in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.Tautology can refer to:

Tautology (logic), a statement of propositional logic which holds for all truth values of its atomic propositions
Tautology (rhetoric), use of redundant language

Boxermania wrote.....

Mike
I respect your perirectal opinion too.....

Perirectal

Surrounding the rectum.........(from Wikipedia)


This is so cool!!! I am learning so much about the english language! I put "tautological" and "perirectal" together and I come up with a

"butthole that makes sense"

I have 28,800 miles on the Rockster now. It's a 2004 and I have not had any issues other than a warped front rotor that was replaced under warranty recently. I have enjoyed owning and riding this bike far more than any other I have had so far.

oiasghar wrote:Bike 2002
Miles 10,800 (bought with 7500 on it August/07)

I see no problem with splines do you?

I agree that these splines look pretty sad for only 10,800 miles, and probably won't make it to 40,000 miles. Most of the posters on this thread have much less than 40,000 miles on the clocks. I was pretty smug with my RT until the splines failed at 43,000 miles. I'll be looking at the 1150R's splines this winter. ( It has just over 20,000 miles. Time to take a look. )

A large percentage of the posts on this thread are irrelevant. The statement "12K miles and zero problems" might be true, but it's not useful information in the context of this problem. On the other hand, if someone could say "I've gone 64000 miles without problems AND I have pulled the transmission to verify that the splines are in good shape" then that statement would be useful.

I could say that I have 15000 on the bike with no problems, but I don't know for sure that my splines don't look like the picture posted above. In other words, those who say that they have no problems might be right, but they might be very wrong.

Just hit 53,000 km. What's a spline failure

But I've just busted my rear brake hose ... it'll make the ABS test lights go nuts!!!!

Cheers

Cat

OK - we've got 25k miles on Roadster (with RHS of transmission permanently stained by fuel spray), and 12k miles on the Rockster... no spline or rear drive or ABS or quick-connect failures to date. I just don't get all this talk of impending doom!

Oh, forgot to mention that I've been safely changing light bulbs for a dozen years, too.

'04, 49k miles, no problems.

OK, whats alot of spline failure? Just the few we see on the boards? Is there 1000's of failures we don't hear about? Are the BMW dealership service departments repairing these monthly? Or are there 1000's out there with high milage that are fine. I'm hoping mine never goes. But I don't worry about the unknown when all is fine. ( for now )
Someone want to take a Dealership survey? How many a big dealership see's in a month or year?

40,200 miles on my '03. Splines are OK, bike shifts smoothly. Final drive is tight and smooth. It did burn an exhaust valve in January, though... it was the first vehicle to do that to me, my family, or any of my friends as far as I know.

Here's what I think:
ANY
spline failure should not be tolerated. As many different pictures I've seen and as many riders that have experienced it (especially 1150RT riders) . . . . Hello!! . . . there IS a serious design/materials OilHead flaw!! Has this EVER happened to ANY car???? (with virtually the same components) . . . In my 50yrs in observing or working on them . . . . NO! . . . NONE!! . . . . NEVER!! Even with unmerciful, repeated, massive abuse combined with modified engines. They take it without failure !!!

Just like you wouldn't tolerate mag wheels disintegrating underneath you or handlebars snapping off in your hands at speed, this failure should be 1 in 100,000, not 3 in 100 or worse.

.

CycleRob wrote:Here's what I think:
ANY
spline failure should not be tolerated. As many different pictures I've seen and as many riders that have experienced it (especially 1150RT riders) . . . . Hello!! . . . there IS a serious design/materials OilHead flaw!! Has this EVER happened to ANY car???? (with virtually the same components) . . . In my 50yrs in observing or working on them . . . . NO! . . . NONE!! . . . . NEVER!! Even with unmerciful, repeated, massive abuse combined with modified engines. They take it without failure !!!

Just like you wouldn't tolerate mag wheels disintegrating underneath you or handlebars snapping off in your hands at speed, this failure should be 1 in 100,000, not 3 in 100 or worse.

.

+1

43 years as an aircraft engineer. Would any of you accept those odds on your plane ride? The end results could be the same. 3% failure is just not acceptable.

CycleRob wrote:this failure should be 1 in 100,000, not 3 in 100 or worse.

+2

I agree with CycleRob.

towerworker wrote:MikeCam and Boxermania...................ya'll shore do know how to use dem big words!!

MikeCam wrote..... "Tautological"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up tautology in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.Tautology can refer to:

Tautology (logic), a statement of propositional logic which holds for all truth values of its atomic propositions
Tautology (rhetoric), use of redundant language

Boxermania wrote.....

Mike
I respect your perirectal opinion too.....

Perirectal

Surrounding the rectum.........(from Wikipedia)


This is so cool!!! I am learning so much about the english language! I put "tautological" and "perirectal" together and I come up with a

"butthole that makes sense"

Al is off his meds.

Wasn't this thread "enough"?

Guys, I see the flaws in the logic and the carpenter syndrome but I still haven't seen any numbers of failures. The design has been around since 1996; updated in 1999 with the 6 speed Gertrag; updated again in 2001. Hundreds of thousands of bikes in production.

Al's diagnosis of the failures he has examined is sound. He just draws conclusions from facts that do not exist. Rob's pronouncement is solid, except the design of cars and bikes is different. The materials, weights, tolerances, and stresses are different. The production decision making is different.

In my world, final drives have a mean time between failure of 7500 miles, splines eat themselves during operation, and fluids are regularly contaminated. Engineers attack problems and program managers make trade-off decisions about what can be tolerated and what must be improved.

If BMW made a decision that 40,000 miles was an acceptable MTBF for the splines and produced the bikes under those conditions, one is justified in not choosing a BMW. It is erroneous, however, in the absence of real information to conclude that this is a design flaw or another failure mode. You just don't have enough info.