Trapped oil.again?

geothepencil · Post by **geothepencil** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:14 am

I confess, I'm a hopeless 1150 engine oil checker. CR has explained how it is and I would just add that I check it hot and cold probably from boredom more than anything else. When checking full hot, I find that the displayed level will decrease a 1/8 inch or so when the engine cools. (Regular 20-50). I don't notice a lot of drainage overnight on an 1150.

1200 engines have their own peculiarities but generally follow the 1150 rules except that overnight drainage does seem to be more and it takes a lot more to get the engine up to temp to open the coolers.

geo

Post by **OU812** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:19 pm

Two days later, and it has returned to "normal".

BigC · Post by **BigC** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:15 pm

Well putting it on the sidestand for the first 5 minutes is an interesting tidbit I was unaware of. I only use it unitl I get situated to move it to the centerstand. Good tip Rob!

I suppose I need to get an oil temp gauge and replace the clock...it serves no purpose anyway since time has no meaning when your on two wheels

I guess a question for Rob would be that 190F that you stated as being hot enough, are you going by the oil temp gauge you have or some other info? I've seen your install which places the probe under the Alt. belt cover. Just wondering if that's what you were going by.

Gypsy, lol, I might be willing to hold a conversation with the bike but I think I'll let other's who are no doubt more graceful than I, do that dance

def38 · Post by **def38** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:08 pm

BigC wrote:Well putting it on the sidestand for the first 5 minutes is an interesting tidbit I was unaware of. I only use it unitl I get situated to move it to the centerstand. Good tip Rob!

I suppose I need to get an oil temp gauge and replace the clock...it serves no purpose anyway since time has no meaning when your on two wheels I guess a question for Rob would be that 190F that you stated as being hot enough, are you going by the oil temp gauge you have or some other info? I've seen your install which places the probe under the Alt. belt cover. Just wondering if that's what you were going by.

Gypsy, lol, I might be willing to hold a conversation with the bike but I think I'll let other's who are no doubt more graceful than I, do that dance

And just what will an oil temperature gauge tell you?

BigC · Post by **BigC** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:28 pm

def38 wrote:
And just what will an oil temperature gauge tell you?

I thought it might take some of the guess work out of wondering whether the bike was at OT or not. You did leave yourself open for some interesting remarks though, lol. I'll be nice... I guess

def38 · Post by **def38** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:27 pm

BigC wrote:
def38 wrote:
And just what will an oil temperature gauge tell you?
I thought it might take some of the guess work out of wondering whether the bike was at OT or not. You did leave yourself open for some interesting remarks though, lol. I'll be nice... I guess

Wrong.........an oil temperature gauge won't tell you your oil temperature and it surely won't tell you your oil level. And, just what temperature would OT be?

An oil temperature gauge on a boxer is useless.....keep the clock.

I would surely like to hear the interesting remarks...........

def38 · Post by **def38** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:00 pm

BigC wrote:
def38 wrote:
And just what will an oil temperature gauge tell you?
I thought it might take some of the guess work out of wondering whether the bike was at OT or not. You did leave yourself open for some interesting remarks though, lol. I'll be nice... I guess

BigC, Let me elaborate a bit regarding oil temperature in a boxer engine;

1- Oil temp is controlled by a very effective thermostated oil cooler system.
2- Measuring the temperature at the bottom of the alternator mount cover as some have suggested does not provide oil temperature information but instead the temperature of the alternator mount cover.
3- The hottest oil location in a boxer is likely at the top comprssion ring land and the exhaust valve, both inaccessible for temperature measurements.
4- If your oil does get a bit hot, say 230-250 F. what would you do about it anyway? I am guessing you might reply "Shut the engine off and wait for it to cool". Wrong answer! Increase RPM and take load off the engine. Remember, your boxer is also ingesting lots of air that can help cool the engine. Shutting it off merely traps heat in the engine and slows eventual cool down.
5- The boxer has a large reservoir of oil, close to 4 quarts...more than enough to perform cooling and adequate lubrication even in hot summer city riding.
6- If you are concerned about elevated oil temperatures, use synthetics...that is what they are made for.
7- Maintain your boxer per the BMW MOM and select a quality engine oil that meets BMWs requirements and you'll never have oil temperature problems.

BigC · Post by **BigC** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:25 pm

def38 wrote:
BigC, Let me elaborate a bit regarding oil temperature in a boxer engine;

1- Oil temp is controlled by a very effective thermostated oil cooler system.
2- Measuring the temperature at the bottom of the alternator mount cover as some have suggested does not provide oil temperature information but instead the temperature of the alternator mount cover.
3- The hottest oil location in a boxer is likely at the top comprssion ring land and the exhaust valve, both inaccessible for temperature measurements.
4- If your oil does get a bit hot, say 230-250 F. what would you do about it anyway? I am guessing you might reply "Shut the engine off and wait for it to cool". Wrong answer! Increase RPM and take load off the engine. Remember, your boxer is also ingesting lots of air that can help cool the engine. Sh
utting it off merely traps heat in the engine and slows eventual cool down.
5- The boxer has a large reservoir of oil, close to 4 quarts...more than enough to perform cooling and adequate lubrication even in hot summer city riding.
6- If you are concerned about elevated oil temperatures, use synthetics...that is what they are made for.
7- Maintain your boxer per the BMW MOM and select a quality engine oil that meets BMWs requirements and you'll never have oil temperature problems.

Honestly, I'm glad you elaborated

1) yes
2) If that's not a good place to measure temp, then what is and how do we get to it?
3) OK, but that's not really going to give you a good temp at the sump...is it? It's really all about the oil temp thermostat...right?
4) I've never shut it off in traffic or otherwise...if I had to wait on a train maybe....
5-7) yes, no, yes...

def38 · Post by **def38** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:48 pm

[/quote]

Honestly, I'm glad you elaboareted

2) If that's not a good place to measure temp, then what is and how do we get to it?

[/quote]

You might consider installing a NTC thermistor at or near the drain plug.

If it were me, I would keep the clock. Another option that might be interesting and put your oil temperature concerns to rest...borrow an IR temperature gun from a friend. Warm your boxer thoroughly and with it running on the center stand (remember, run a fan pointed at the oil cooler), take some temperature readings across various areas of the engine such as;

1- Sump
2- Rocker cover
3- Exhaust exit at cylinder head
4- Oil cooler fins
5- Exposed oil lines

I think you'll get bored and forget about oil temperare. Now, take the money you saved on the temperature gauge and buy your wife some flowers.

Post by **CycleRob** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:45 am

OK. So this oil level post has morphed into an oil temp gauge post.

Whether or not you should install an oil temp gauge sometimes depends on the climate and type of riding you do -or- mostly, it's that you're just one of those gear-head types that just likes knowing what's going on down below. It's especially important if you are using conventional oil whose breakdown and fail temps are lower and more easily obtained than what a full synthetic oil will easily survive.

Increasing the RPM's will not increase the cooling on an OilHead. It increases the heating of the entire system from the powerpulses that have been multiplied many times by those RPM's. The cooling oil flow is increased, but it's fighting a loosing battle unless the bike's speed thru the air is also increased. All that will do is add the heat of combustion to the oil supply, hoping to expel it thru the oil coolers , thermal mass absorption and surface area cooling of the engine/trans/frame unit. Most importantly, the incoming cooling oil is increasingly hotter than it was a minute ago and less able to absorb the added heat. It becomes a runaway thermal gain situation more rapidly approaching the point of overheating. It's like a marathon runner putting on another long sleeve sweatshirt every 5 miles. BMW, like all bike mfgr's, takes into account how the thermal mass and surface area of the frame and engine/transmission unit also contribute to cooling, or at least significantly delay the time to the point of overheating. On our bike that thermal mass and exposed surface area is HUGE compared to the average bike. It is also all out in the open air blast.

Taking readings with a fan on the engine will tell you the "wheels rolling" temps, but turn that fan off . . . . and run the bike while sitting in a 30 minute traffic gridlock. THEN you'll wish you didn't get those flowers for your wife that have long ago died.

Please don't let it now morph into a "Flowers for the Wife" post.

BigC · Post by **BigC** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:20 am

Thanks for the information and I apologize for leading the thread astray.

Post by **ProductUser** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:27 am

def38 wrote:
ProductUser wrote:I love these threads.

It should be lower as the oil will condense.
ProductUser
The oil doesn't condense..it does expand and contract somewhat however. Synthetics will exhibit this phenomena to a much greater extent.

The synthetic oil molecule uncoils and exhibits higher viscosity as the temperature rises...a strong reason to use synthetic oils.

Okay -- using the word "condense' may have been a little off -- but I was close

def38 · Post by **def38** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:25 pm

CycleRob wrote:It's especially important if you are using conventional oil whose breakdown and fail temps are lower and more easily obtained than what a full synthetic oil will easily survive.

Increasing the RPM's will not increase the cooling on an OilHead. It increases the heating of the entire system from the powerpulses that have been multiplied many times by those RPM's.

Some dino oils will tolerate heat well. The only sure way to know if you have worn out your oil due to heat (or other factors such as shearing) is with a UOA.

Increasing RPM and reducing engine load will bring down engine oil temperatures. Remember, work is related to heat in a gasoline fueled piston engine. Reduce the work/unit time (load) and you reduce heat. The opposite is true of diesel engines.

As for oil temperature, just watch your RID.

def38 · Post by **def38** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:29 pm

ProductUser wrote:
def38 wrote:
ProductUser wrote:I love these threads.

It should be lower as the oil will condense.
ProductUser
The oil doesn't condense..it does expand and contract somewhat however. Synthetics will exhibit this phenomena to a much greater extent.

The synthetic oil molecule uncoils and exhibits higher viscosity as the temperature rises...a strong reason to use synthetic oils.
Okay -- using the word "condense' may have been a little off -- but I was close

In Mesa, AZ, your oil may in fact condense based upon the temperatures you have experienced lately...but, the oil would have to have been in the vapor state in order to condense...wow, that would be hot! In your climate, I would use nothing but synthetic in an air cooled engine.

Post by **CycleRob** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:40 pm

ncreasing RPM and reducing engine load will bring down engine oil temperatures. Remember, work is related to heat in a gasoline fueled piston engine. Reduce the work/unit time (load) and you reduce heat. The opposite is true of diesel engines.

That may be half remembered from a torn page after an all nighter in 1987 (BTDT), but anyone that has a temp gauge on their air cooled OilHead will confirm that higher RPM's mean the temp increases . . . . right before your eyes. On the superslab, down shaded country roads and especially in the city. I experienced it today with Ann on the back in 94degF ambient (34.4C). 50MPH (80.5kph) in 6th gear (level roads) very slowly cooled the oil down from 217F (102.8C) . Riding 5th gear at the same speed saw it gradually increase from 208F (97.8C) to that 217 number above. A 6 car length following distance also helps cooling in either gear because they block the airflow at throw off heat.

Has anyone with a temp gauge cooled their bike down with higher RPM's?

Rog(UK) - Yorkshire Dales · Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:41 am

To me, cooling the engine down by increasing the revs goes against the laws of both Engineering and Physics. If the power output is the same (as you say; work done per unit time), then the only variable will be engine speed - and if this is increased, then internal losses will also increase giving rise to an extra amount of energy which would have to be dissapated. The only way this can happen is if the temperature of the engine rises.

Ride safely,

Rog

Post by **jm1515** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:40 am

CycleRob wrote:
ncreasing RPM and reducing engine load will bring down engine oil temperatures. Remember, work is related to heat in a gasoline fueled piston engine. Reduce the work/unit time (load) and you reduce heat. The opposite is true of diesel engines.
That may be half remembered from a torn page after an all nighter in 1987 (BTDT), but anyone that has a temp gauge on their air cooled OilHead will confirm that higher RPM's mean the temp increases . . . . right before your eyes. On the superslab, down shaded country roads and especially in the city. I experienced it today with Ann on the back in 94degF ambient (34.4C). 50MPH (80.5kph) in 6th gear (level roads) very slowly cooled the oil down from 217F (102.8C) .....

Has anyone with a temp gauge cooled their bike down with higher RPM's?

Nope...I think Dennis made a boo-boo.
Whenever I see temps get a little higher than I'd like, I always kick it up a gear and lower the rpms. Esp in stop and go traffic....
It may be another little thing to stress about, but engine/oil temp and battery voltage are very important for me to monitor on my bikes, so I've mounted a meter for each on my R.

def38 · Post by **def38** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:47 am

Doesn't really matter to me....I do know that when my oil gets hot (7-8 bars), I increase RPMs to circulate oil at a higher rate (more trips through the cooler)...I have nothing more to say about it.

Post by **iowabeakster** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:38 pm

dang,

I was hoping for full fledged BRAWL! We need a little excitement around here.

def38 · Post by **def38** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:17 pm

iowabeakster wrote:dang,

I was hoping for full fledged BRAWL! We need a little excitement around here.

Sorry.....no brawl..I just use synthetic....keeps me outta trouble (and brawls) regardless of oil temperature...Oh, and as far as voltage is concerned...I don't really care about it...I'm more interested in current....and as far as oil pressure goes, who cares...but now, when it comes to fuel..well, don't get me started on fuel....there's someting I DO pay attention to!!!