ESA vs non ESA opinions please.

[Illogical]

Hi all....new to the forum here.
I'll soon be buying an r12r either new or used depending on what I find. I'm juggling the idea of ESA or not and hoping for more opinion. I've read pretty much all the ESA posts but wondering if opinions have changed at all considering ESA Wilber's, etc. are available?

I mainly ride 1up with no panniers and sometimes with panniers moderately loaded but never 2up. I like twisty roads but am not what one would call an aggressive rider. Forced to be on the freeway at times.

I did a short test ride on a 2012 with no ESA and felt it a little harsh on the bumps. But this was a short ride. Then took a long test ride on an ESA model and loved it. Don't know how the bikes were initially set up though regarding suspension.

So my dilemma is ESA with aftermarket ESA down the road, or non ESA with aftermarket shocks much sooner?

Would love to hear opinions.
BP

[Bamblys]

I ordered my bike with an ESA when i bought it, they had some non ESA ones on the lot but my buddy had me convinced that ESA is the best thing on the planet. Now I have 1800 miles on it and I'm not even sure that it works. I change the settings and riding is exactly the same. 1up 2up, sport comfort - nothing changes. And if it does it's so little that i'm thinking why the hell i paid $800 for it. So far i only ridden 1up but i usually have a trunk on and i tried all the available settings with no discernible difference. Maybe i'm just not that sensitive.

[Illogical]

Thanks for the reply...much appreciated.

Does anybody have experience with a Wilber's or other ESA aftermarket set up? I've read that the difference between the settings are much more noticeable.

Would a properly set up aftermarket with no esa cover 1up riding as well as 1up plus side panniers loaded very well? I'm a novice when it comes to suspension.

Look forward to more opinions.
Thanks.

[deilenberger]

Would a properly set up aftermarket with no esa cover 1up riding as well as 1up plus side panniers loaded very well? I'm a novice when it comes to suspension.

Look forward to more opinions.
Thanks.

Does for me. I use Hyperpro suspension.. and when going touring (both bags full up of crap) I turn the remote preload adjuster on the rear shock 3 turns and I'm good to go... if anything it's a bit more composed feeling with the extra weight on it (sounds odd - but that's how it feels.) Given the exorbitant replacement cost of the ESA suspension, and the initial cost, I can manage the three turns a few times a riding season.

There is no need to change the front shock since the pannier loaded weight all goes to the rear of the bike.. and I've never found it necessary to change the damping adjustments either.

For more on suspension setup on an R12R - http://www.eilenberger.net/Suspension/suspension.htm

[Illogical]

Thanks Don. Appreciate your opinion. Sounds like non esa with good aftermarkets might be the way to go then based on your experience.

Anybody else have experience or opinions regarding the esa 12r's with good esa supported wilbers or others installed?

[Illogical]

Don, I just saw your page on suspension. Looks like good reading...thank you.
Brett

[Snapping Twig]

WORKS Performance makes replacement shocks for both ESA and non ESA R1200R's.

I'm going to have them make me a set for my non ESA 1200R when my OEM's wear out.

Similar in cost to OEM replacement shocks, but way better! Dual rate springs, custom valving, super high quality. I'll compare Wilber's and Ohlins for performance vs cost and then compare to WORKS, but at this point in time I am planning on the WORKS.

[Illogical]

Thanks Snapping Twig...(feel like I'm in a martial arts movie suddenly)
How are you feeling about your current non esa suspension? I felt it to be a bit harsh but I'm lighter than the average they are set up for at approx 140lbs.

It would be great to hear what you think once you do the switch. I'm still on the fence as to go with the esa or not.

BP

[Lost Rider]

ESA shocks sounds nice in theory, I've never had them.... with that said they are the same crappy, cheap, uninspiring Showa shocks as non-ESA ones. With so many miles on high quality Ohlins and my experience setting up other BMW bikes going from OEM shocks to aftermarket I can't recommend waisting any money on what is crappy shocks no matter the perceived convenience of not having to turn the dials by hand.

I guess aftermarket ESA would be good, but once my Ohlins were setup all I ever need to do is adjust preload for different weights when loaded.

With your weight the bike doesn't perform right at all, having any quality brand custom shock that is sprung and valved correctly with greatly improve the bike's handling, without a doubt.
If you buy the bike new or with low miles you should be able to sell your OEM shocks on ebay to offset the cost of good shocks, something that every BMW owner should do FIRST when they get their bike IMO.

I get my all my Ohlins from one of the best Ohlins guru's around, Dan Kyle at http://www.kyleusa.com


Welcome to the forum!


-Finn



Worth their weight in Gold....

[Illogical]

Thanks for chiming in Finn,
I know you have a lot of riding under your belt and appreciate your thoughts. I think I'm going to go with non ESA and go directly to an after market shock as you say.

You obviously like your ohlins. Are there any known differences to be aware of between the good aftermarkets? Ohlins vs. Wilbers vs. Works, etc?

Thanks again
BP

[Lost Rider]

Glad to share my opinions, even more pleased that they are well received in this case.


I can only say for certain that the Ohlins shocks on the 3 BMW bikes I installed them on transformed the bike to what I believe it should be.
I don't know the technical differences between the shocks, I do know I put 50,000 miles on my Ohlins and should have had them rebuilt at least 15,000 miles earlier. A few hundred bucks spent recently having them rebuilt and my bike feels just like it did for a long time.
Confidence when your life depends on it, comfort the rest of the time. A more definitive feeling of connection to the road.

I'd imagine it will be easy to find similar testimonials about Wilbers, they've been around making top notch shocks for quite some time too.
I've honestly not heard much of Works shocks, always feeling confident I have just what I need, being setup and installed by a very highly respected suspension tuner I've never looked elsewhere, at least for BMW motorbikes. My (Swedish) dirt bike has WP (German) suspension, a brand I also have no need to explore the competition with, though these came stock and I just had them sprung and valved for me.

By my own admittance, I'm not an expert on all aftermarket shocks that could be far superior to the OEM Showa shocks, and therefore just because I'm not familiar with Works doesn't mean they won't make the bike what it should be for you, especially since your weight is outside the range for any stock shock. Obviously the people that have them are happy with them and in the end that's all that matters.

Now the fun begins where you weight all the various reports, opinions, internet scuttlebutt, BS, specs, marketing speak, and so on.... vs. price, dealer network, build time, etc. to make you feel good when you plop down a decent investment right from the start.
You're wiser than many and at least understand that the suspension upgrades, especially for you is a necessary cost to getting to the point that's not leaving you wanting anything else for a long time and many sMiles. Then worry about the other stuff to make the bike truly yours.


To keep in line with motorcycle forum discussions of promoting the brand of my personal choice, I'll leave you with this crafty marketing link by Ohlins to digest.
That's a lot of big races won for a lot of years on Gold shocks, for whatever that's worth.
I doubt you can go wrong with any reputable brand of shocks set up for you though.

http://www.ohlins.com/About-the-company/This-is-Ohlins/

http://www.ohlins.com/About-the-company/Hall-of-Fame/



Good luck!



-Finn

[Illogical]

Again. Thanks for taking the time to thoughtfully reply. I will check out the links you provide in the morning.

Just did a bit of reading on Hyper Pro shocks. They seem to be the only one providing a progressive spring. Any thoughts on the useful benefits a progressive might have over the linear Wilbers, Ohlins, etc? Any negatives of progressive springs that are known?

Anybody else have comments they might want to share?... I'm in the "all ears" mode.

BP

[Illogical]

Question for Finn and others who have gone with Ohlins or Wilbers.

Did you go to Kyle or Teds shop for subsequent setup/tuning of the shocks? I would definitely need help here as my understanding of the details are rudimentary at best. I will likely go with ohlins or Wilbers since these two are in California as am I here in LA.

Thanks again for all opinions.
BP

[NakedRider]

I had ESA and non-ESA at the same time. The ESA was on a K1200S and the non-ESA was on a Megamoto that had been properly set up by an expert. Riding the both down the same road I would say I had much better control with the Megamoto. Likewise with my R1200R. I put a set of Wilbers on it almost right away and also had it set up by the same expert.

After market shocks are the way to go. You can get a much more precise set up for your weight/riding style...

Make sure you have them set up by someone that really knows what they are doing. It's a very good value for the results.

[Illogical]

Thanks for your input. Did Ted at the Beemer shop set you up?

I'm feeling good about going non ESA with ohlins or wilbers. Other opinions are of course welcome.

Enjoy the holiday weekend.
BP

[Lost Rider]

I have not been to Dan's shop, he set up the shocks, I installed them. Previously I had used Don's excellent suspension write up to play with sag and settings, but this time around I haven't touched a thing since getting them rebuilt and am very pleased with the ride. I'm really no suspension expert either, I just know what feels good, and when things don't feel so good, since things are good and feels right it's not needed to tweak it for now. If things didn't feel right I would refer to Don's write up to start. You can always set it back to "factory" settings and it's a good idea to play with it to learn how it works if you please. I wouldn't over think it too much... just having the correct springs on a quality shock will help you either way.
I actually changed spring rate tab last rebuild because the bike was originally sprung for my weight WITH luggage since at the time I was spending much more time traveling on my bike than not. Now I have multiple bikes for various adventures and have the bike setup for just me and tighten the preload when I'm loaded, which unfortunately is not as often as I'd like. Before the spring rate change my bike handled best when loaded with the "correct" load, no doubt. Even though I fall right in the "correct" weight for the OEM shocks the difference has always been very noticeable for me.
I do know you can go in to Dan's shop to have him tweak things if you want, he's near Santa Cruz.

Living in Socal you have plenty of options for suspension gurus nearby, I'd imagine others can help with that info too. I'm pretty sure there's Wilber's shops around out here too.

Ted helped me in many ways up at A+S, but not with suspension.

Are you a DIY kind of guy, or are you looking to take the bike in and have it all done? Swapping shocks is not a terribly difficult process if you're a little confident with a torque wrench, there's lots of info on doing so around here.

[Illogical]

Point well taken...thanks.
I am handy enough with a wrench and sure I could do the shock swap with good instructions as long as no special tools are required. And yes, it would be interesting to play with the shock settings myself to get a feel for it. I have not taken the time to read Don's write up yet but have it book marked to do so. And I could always get help to correct my wrongs if need be.

I think setting up the shocks for my 1up weight unloaded would be best, then add preload as you say, when loading up a bit. I don't often get the opportunity to take many multi day rides but definitely want the option with side bags.


Off topic question.... Are stock 12r's lean from the dealer? And if so, is there an easy way to richen them up a bit? My current bike was really leaned out when I got it but easy to adjust as it is a carb'ed bike. (Maybe a new thread is in order)

[Caol]

I've got 67000km on my '07 w/ESA and have used it extensively. For me, the different settings are quite noticeable, especially the pre-load as you can feel the bike lifting under you. On the less than smooth roads I have available (frost heaves! ) changes in damping can also be quite noticeable.

Due to the mileage on my machine, it has become time to swap out the ESA shocks. I'd noticed that things were getting a little mushy, or had to go up a notch on the damping to get the performance needed on some of the roads around here. (SoutEast BC) It doesn't help that I'm in the 140kg class!!! So, I went shopping. Everybody seems to have a setup for the RT and the GS ESA systems, but nobody had done a roadster before. The folks at HyperPro (Klaus - thanks Don!) immediately stepped up to the plate and said that if I was willing to be the guinea pig, they'd work it up.

The up-shot is: I've got a set of "standard" HyperPro's on the bike while the ESA's are being converted. All I can say (so far) is Wow! As much as I've enjoyed the ESA system, the difference in the springing has made a HUGE difference in the feel of the bike. The HyperPro's, with the remote pre-load adjust on the rear and the progressive rate springs have made the bike waaayyy more comfortable to ride on said frost heaved roads, without getting any of that "disconnected" feeling or other twitchieness. To the point that I'm going to throw this into the mix - I'm willing to wager (not much but maybe a beer) that a high percentage of our seat complaints actually start in the suspension and single rate springs.

I have yet to receive the rebuilt ESA system from the tinkerers at HyperPro, but should have them in the next couple/three weeks. I'm really looking forward to having a really nice, aftermarket, ESA system.

This will be followed up by a minimum 13,000km round trip to the East Coast, starting mid-June and finishing at the end of August. I'll come back with a bit of a road report on the suspension performance.

Kyle

[Illogical]

Hi Kyle
Thanks for the additional perspective. I didn't know that nobody has made the esa shock for the 12r yet...hard to believe. I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in hearing a report on them when you get them back.

Regarding your non esa hyperpro's... You seem to be a fan of the progressive spring. Yesterday I read an old article comparing ohlin's and hyperpro's on an rt and the conclusion was that the hyperpro's were slightly more on the 'sport' oriented side and ohlin's slightly more on the 'touring' side of things. The author gave big kudos to both brands and stressed proper set-up over the individual shocks themselves.

Any other impressions or thoughts on the progressive springs regarding riding style or if they seem more on the sport side of things? Have you ever ridden good linear sprung aftermarkets to compare to?

Best
BP

[Lost Rider]

Off topic question.... Are stock 12r's lean from the dealer? And if so, is there an easy way to richen them up a bit? My current bike was really leaned out when I got it but easy to adjust as it is a carb'ed bike. (Maybe a new thread is in order)

The fuel injection takes care of that, no need to mess with fuel mixture i.e. changing the electronic map IMHO. From what I gather from just a few complaints I've read online about a "twitchy throttle" I attribute to a personal lack of throttle control, or the desire to make the bike less responsive so it's more like the carb'd bike people are more used to when switching to a BMW. No offense intended for those that feel differently.
I say get some miles on the bike first, surrender to the BMW way and learn to utilize the excellent and predictable throttle response at any elevation. Just like the tele lever suspension and linked ABS brakes, there's a few things that take getting used to, but once you accept it and learn to exploit it there's no looking back to the less technically advanced bikes.
I came from a R1150R to the 12R and the improvement in throttle performance was obvious, BMW seemed to solve the old "surging" issues more common on the older boxers. Then again I have so many miles on this machine that I'm just very used to how it works and never felt the need for a booster plug or messing with the map. Some people are very happy with their changes. I just ride mine.

If you even make it up near Ventura, hit me up, I'd be more than happy to shoot the poo and maybe let you ride my bike to feel the Ohlins... as long as you're not like that mayhem guy in the Allstate Ad's ...."how hard can it be"?....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CG5HozkvAc