Quandary Regarding the Purchase of a 2010 R1200R

[AllanCook]

I think a lowered RT is probably your best bet for the purposes you've described.

[mogu83]

OH was that the question We do tend to wander.

Ok ST1300 or R1200R for the slabs and 1,000 days

For the slabs for 1,000 miles days I think I would go for the ST also. The R1200 with no windshield and the much lighter weight would definitely be at an disadvantage if you are going to do back to back to back to etc 1,000 mile slab days.


HOWEVER - who does that kind of riding. With a fairing (Parabellum Scout) 1,000 mile days on the slab can be comfortable on the R1200R, and you soon get use to the lighter weight. Doing an occasional 1,000 miler is no problem. When you get off the slabs you will appreciate the lighter weight and the cooler running in the warm weather. I sometimes ride with a guy with a ST1300 and on a hot summer day sitting next to him at a light I can feel the heat when the fan comes on.

[bicyclist]

I submit for your consideration the Honda NT700V. Lighter than the ST1300, better fuel mileage, outstanding reputation for reliability, much less expensive and yadda, yadda.

[Michael Hart]

what worked for me for choosing the R1200R. I bought and sold 4 different style (used) bikes 1 at a time. I rode each one for about 2000 miles. and in the mean time I kept test riding the F800st / R1200RT / and R1200R. Always thought I would buy the RT But I liked the R better. lighter easier to maneuver. It really helped to put miles on different bikes. For me this is the best all around bike.

[AncientMariner]

I replaced my 1994 Harley FXDS-Conv with a BMW K-75. I never looked back except for an occassional ride on my 4 younger brothers Harleys. They began to feel incredibly ponderous both in parking lots and going down the road. I still have the K75 and I can tell you it is very top heavy and has some handling quirks, but It outperformed all those Harleys. I loved it for 15 years. I bought an 2010 R1200 R after a short test ride because it was time to try something else and the R1200 R felt great.

Nearly a year after I got the R1200 R, I was on a 650 mile day trip ride to Vermont in the fall. Temps hit 25 degrees during the ride up. On the way home, I caught an edge trap and went down fast. I was not injured in any way. Unfortunately my bike slid across the road and down into a river. It was totalled.

I looked at a couple of Ducatis, the F800 series of BMW bikes and considered the Honda NT 700V someone suggested. However, the morning after my insurance settlement arrived, I bought a new R1200 R.

I'm 5'8'' tall with a 29" inseam. The first bike was standard suspension with a low seat. I did have to tip toe in parking lots, but it was acceptable. Mistakenly I thought my bike had the Comfort Seat - it was that good. My new bike has the factory lowered suspension. It is much easier to horse around in parking lots, but the ride is a bit harsher. Exact same saddle has not felt as comfortable. (only about 800 miles on the newby).

I still have the K75 (for sale $4,495) and rode it a lot while I was between Roadsters. Compared to the Roadster, it is cumbersome and not as steady on scarified highway. There is no comparison in back road twisties. And, you may recall, I found it so much better than the half dozen Harleys I have ridden.

Go for the R1200 R. Screw around with the seat and windshield. The advice you'll need is all in here. Add some handguards and a throtle lock and you will have an incredible highway cruiser that can run with anybody in the twisties. Your only downside will be the constant teasing you will get from your old Harley buds. They just don't get it.

Bruce

[ErikM]

I had a ST1300 for a month and sold it. As someone else mentioned just un-ridable in any temp over 80.. ridiculous.. R1200R may be the best all around BMW you can get. But on long slab rides, it wouldn't be my first choice. I really think a lowered R1200RT would be a better choice. If you plan on one long ride a year and mostly shorter rides R1200R can be setup to do the slab thing, but if you really plan on lots of long distance riding the RT is really the bike to get.

R1200RT Unladen weight, road ready, fully fueled 570 lbs (259 kg) ***Includes Hard Bags

R1200R Unladen weight, road ready, fully fueled 492 lbs (223 kg) ***Does Not include Hard Bags add 20lbs

[geardrve]

I was listening to the conversation about ABS. I bought a 2010 R1200R with the tour package (Non ABS).
Before the purchase I rode the demo with ABS, and found it very nice. As an older rider (66) who rides and loves everything with 2 wheels,
I have found that the brakes on the non abs bike are just right for me. If I could get abs put on my bike for $50.00 I would say no.
Guess after riding drum brakes for so many years, and still do, not to pickey.

Gear

[Chumley]

I'm with gear on this ABS and for me it includes ASC.

I believe that we should develop our skills so that ABS takes care of the odd extreme emergency. I don't think it is something that should come to be relied upon because we do not want to learn the proper skills or just get lazy, neither of these bodes well for a long motorcycling future. I believe the same could be said for ASC.

Operating a motorcycle is different from driving a 4 wheeled vehicle. You must constantly be aware of what is going on whether it be traffic, road conditions or moving obstacles. Braking is just one part of the equation, emergency manuevering after slowing a vehicle may be necessary and this needs some skills that can be tied to understanding and developing a feel for braking. It is all part of the package of being a good proficient motorcyclist. actually, if I could buy a car without ABS I would, I do not know of a single situation where it helped but many that scared the crap out of me and reduce my margin of safety but then I am an active driver too.

I wouldn't mind the new generation BMW ABS but it did not effect me for more than all of 1/10 of a second to decide it was not a big deal when I found my current new bike (also a 2010 with touring package) . The previous generation rendered my GS's braking wooden and failed momentarily a few times right in my own neighborhood (black ice effect - no black ice). You gotta know something is wrong when the dealer tells you that you'll get used to the lack of brake feeling. BMW solved that problem but certainly left a lasting impression upon me.

So please don't use ABS as an excuse to bypass developing the proper skill set to keep from being an undersireable statistic. It would also be nice if this doesn't get beyond mature conversation.

Back to the tpic of this thread:
I think that the R1200R would be fine for touring. I think we get to splitting hairs on what is best for what and the motorcycle manufacturers haven't helped. They build a bike for Saturday mornings and one for Saturday afternoons and one for..., well you get it. The beauty of the Roadster is that it is more of a road focused GS. It does everything well. If you want a bike just for slabbing then get a Goldwing with a set of retractible outriggers (with reverse) or a lowered RT. I suspect that unless you are one of the very fortunate few that never rides around town and every ride is a tour then you will want a bike that is still easy to handle around town, comfortable on a country road and then the few times a year you get to chase the horizon you do that too, just not as well as a RT or Goldwing. If you rode with me you would enjoy it cross country because I specialize in avoiding long stretches of slab and take mostly highways and secondary roads. Superslabs are typically the straightest and least interesting roads since the goal is efficient travel and not sight seeing, sure there are exceptions but I believe that is the general rule.

Either way, buy an R1200R and start riding it. You may be on a bike that is not perfect a few days a year but the rest of the time the smile will crease your face.

Chum

[ContraMoto]

FWIW -- the latest generation of BMW ABS is invisible to the rider. I rode ABS and non-ABS bikes back to back at a dealer. I couldn't have told you the difference on a bet, insofar as normal riding goes. The ABS just sits silently in the background.

But, if you threw some sand in my path, and a minivan pulled out in front of me, I bet I could tell you the difference in a heartbeat! On the ABS bike, I'd be standing there upright and mad as hell. On the non-ABS bike, I'd be lying on the ground with some form of injury and a busted up bike.

As for, "You should develop the skills..." That's a pathetic excuse to avoid proven safety technology! Nobody has the skills to panic-stop on a slippery road. There are plenty of videos kicking around out there with elite professional riders being out-stopped in tests by amateur riders on ABS bikes. I guarantee you I can stop my ABS 12R on the first run down a wet road faster than any rider of any skill level on a non-ABS bike. No practice to get familiar with the surface -- just a real world test where you ride along and hit the brakes. I will win every single time.

"You should develop the skills..." reminds me of early opponents to seatbelts who argued that you should learn to "anticipate crashes" and just reach over and hold your kid from slamming into the dash.

[Jed]

As for, "You should develop the skills..." That's a pathetic excuse to avoid proven safety technology! Nobody has the skills to panic-stop on a slippery road.

OK we get it. You've got some strongly held opinions regarding ABS on bikes. Check!
Now can we get back to letting other people make their own choices and have their own opinions? Nothing wrong with your opinion just as there's nothing wrong with someone else's opinion. Trust me, the world is big enough for divergent views on how critical / mandatory motorcycle ABS systems are or should be.

cheers,

[ContraMoto]

I think that when an opinion is posted that advises other riders to make dangerous choices, others of us have a right to object to and challenge such advice.

Folks have every right to make their own dangerous choices, but to advise others to do the same is irresponsible.

[Jed]

I think that when an opinion is posted that advises other riders to make dangerous choices, others of us have a right to object to and challenge such advice.

Please cite your reference where, in this thread, someone advised another to (given the choice) choose a non-ABS bike.

[Caroanbill]

Please cite your reference where, in this thread, someone advised another to (given the choice) choose a non-ABS bike.

Settle, petal! The quote is from the post immdediately above that post - it would've take mere seconds to read it before you fired off prematurely. The point was not to tell non- or anti- ABS folk that they should or must get ABS, but to suggest they refrain from advocating other riders avoid safety technologies. The writer cited as simple fact that the new ABS is unintrusive until it saves you, and that in the real world ABS will always beat "skills" - a valid viewpoint, and also true in my experience. So perhaps you could hop back into your (soap) box. In any event, the consensus on this board would appear to be heavily in favour of ABS.


BACK TO TOPIC

On endless miles of open straightish roads, in cool or inclement weather, there's no denying the benefits of an integrated fairing with good coverage. The extra weight can even make a smoother ride, provded the suspension is up to the task.

Once off the highway, all that weight makes itself felt - which is the OP's concern. I'm 5'8", short legs, a back "history" and I can paddle my low-seat R12R over tricky gound easily enough, or roll it around with one hand on the 'bar and one on the seat. I can't do that with an R12RT, let alone an ST1300. My R is very easy on my back, even using the centre stand on wobbly camp grounds.

I've done a lot of open-road riding on the R12R, coz - well, that's how Australia is made! In truly cold weather I notice it ain't an RT or ST, and there's a bit more wind noise than an RT - but with good riding gear, the deficit isn't really a problem. And as soon as you're off into tight stuff, tricky stuff or city stuff the R has it all over heavy, fully faired bikes.

So I'd plump for the R12R - but I'd try the R12RT first because it isn't that much heavier ...

BTW, the NT700V Deauville is ~30kg heavier than the R12R - and has less power. It's ~250kg wet, almost as heavy as the R12RT (pity - it is a nice bike!).

[xprof]

OK, I've been riding 50 years this spring, and the "R" is my first bike with ABS. I lived a long time without it! Last weekend, after about 200 miles of riding twisties (Foxen Canyon, Tepusquet Canyon, Cuyama, Hwy 33) I was heading home over Casitas Pass, following a bit close behind a BMW sport sedan leaning into a blind right-hander at about 50 in 3rd gear, when he nails his brakes! (He was justified, with a bicycle in his lane and oncoming traffic.) I nailed mine, and came to a stable and controlled stop with 10/15 feet left behind his bumper. No harm, no foul. But it was a nice demonstration of the ABS on my "R": there was no rear wheel chirp or hop, no little slide-out wobble, just a sudden, powerful controlled stop, like the hand of God. I think I would probably have survived without it, as I have done so many times before, but I'm pretty sure it would have raised my heart beat a whole lot more than it did! I'm now quite convinced that, for me, ABS is a GOOD THING, and it may just have saved my a.. this time. I'm recommending it to all my friends...

For what it's worth.

[deilenberger]

I've sort of stayed out of this discussion since I'm somewhat rabid about ABS.. enough so that I've added it to bikes that didn't come with it (an '85 K100RT, and an '87 K75S..)

The one thing it does better then a non-ABS system - it allows you do do maximum braking and let the electronics take care of the threshold. I've only been riding about 35 years now, so I'm a beginner, but without ABS - in bad weather, bad pavement, whatever - I never would know where the front wheel braking threshold was until I reached it, and then bad things tend to happen. With ABS - as xProf said - It's grab the lever and invoke the hand of Dog to slow you down. No fear of the front wheel locking and folding under - you just brake HARD RIGHT NOW.

I'm sure somewhere there is someone SO skilled that under ideal conditions (dry pavement, perfect tires inflated perfectly) they might outbrake an ABS system. Once, or perhaps twice. Throw normal riding conditions into the equation and it just ain't gonna happen. I added ABS to those bikes because I was really tired of locking up my rear wheel when deer jumped out in front of me. I was good at it - something I learned riding dirty bikes where locking the rear wheel was expected - and you learned how to control the bike as the wheel regained traction.. but I'd rather not have to rely on that skill since sooner or later a situation was bound to occur where my skill set failed me.

As far as the original question - I've toured long distances on my R12R, and I can't think of a better bike to do it on. If you're just planning on slab travel - get a trailer, put the bike on it and hitch it up to a car. You'll be more comfortable, a lot safer, and you won't be missing a thing. My touring goal is to ditch the superslab as quickly as possible and get off on the interesting roads. An hour or two of slab is fine. All day is simply torture because of boredom (not the bike.. it does it just fine.) To me it's not the distance that counts - it's the quality of the ride, and for that - the R12R and decent secondary roads can't be beat.

Somehow - I've gone from fully faired (RT) to partial fairing (S) to naked (R12R) - and with each step my yearly mileage has increased, and the length and distance of my trips has grown. It's simply easier for me to ride the R12R, and more fun then the other bikes were... and I'm old and decrepit complete with various forms of arthritis and the usual aches and pains of later (well actually LATE) middle age (if I live to 130..)

It's your choice what you ride, and you should make an effort to find what works for you.. what works for others isn't necessarily "the answer" - so I'd suggest if you're undecided - spend a few hundred dollars and rent each of the bikes for a day or two. Put some miles on them and the answer should become obvious. There are places that rent RT's and places that rent R12R's.. spend the money and decide what works for you.

Back to your regularly scheduled ABS argument. You know what my opinion is.. (and that's all it is - but it works for me..)

Rubber side down eh?

[Chumley]

Indeed the motorcyling landscape here has changed...

I did not advocate avoiding ABS, I advocate developing skills that leave ABS for use as it was intended - as the technology that takes care of the moment when you can't do the job yourself. I am sure you already know that the art, and practiced response, of brake modulation (a.k.a. threshold braking) must be overridden with ABS. Do you fully understand how fantastic the brakes are on these bikes? Did you notice that they have stainless steel braided brake lines and rebadged Brembo brakes and what makes those items significant? My fear is that many riders have never learned what it is like to fully control a motorcycle, the one they ride everyday. How often has ABS saved someones hide, numerous I know. How many times did it kick in simply because it was there and no skill level was in use? That is what I am addressing. More skill = better chance of survival. More skill + ABS = even better chance of survival. I am just saying that ABS should not be a panacea.

Out of my last 5 bikes 2 had ABS and 3 did not. That is just in the last 7 years. Out there, away from this board, most motorcycles are not even offered with ABS. BMW themselves offer most all models in their lineup without ABS. My biggest surprise after all of this is that I lived riding on the street these last 35 years (I started young) without ABS. I have had Harleys (big twin and Sportsters), a Ducati, Triumph Bonnie, a Norton ('74 new in '76), etc.. to name a few. The new generation of non-servo ABS is fine, think twice about previous generation ABS on the big bikes if you ride in a sporting style - yes that is my recommendation. BMW got the ABS on the singles right from the beginning.

I fear that modern motorcyclists are straying from becoming and remaining good skilled operators of our high performance machinery. What happened to the concept of the natural graduation of motorcycle size and power based upon simple common sense and budget? It got replaced by motorcycles being relatively cheap compared to most other forms of excitement and the stigma imposed by some that riding a small bike means your less of a something... The responses to my comments have simply left me flummoxed. I would never in my life of motorcycling think that I would ever see someone advocating use of technology to overcome their own desire to learn how to operate our wonderful and exciting machinery.

Are the responses to my comments based upon you all wanting to be a protector of others or because your own level of skill was challenged? I did not mean for it to be taken that way. Please don't respond unless you can maintain a civil dialog.

On this board only you, or those immediate enough to know you, know if you are competent as a rider and know what you truly need or want to feel comfortable. If someone will avoid purchasing a bike with ABS after my last post then there are issues far beyond my comment about skill sets at play. If there were 2 bikes on the floor and one had ABS and one didn't I'd buy the one with ABS. But would a bike not having ABS keep me away, well I voted with my dollars.

I was a member here in 2002/2003 (even donated $) and things have sure changed. There were those that knew about motorcycling and those that came to learn from them, and we socialized - we all shared and learned. Try the previous arguments for relying on ABS vs developing skills on another board or at a place where motorcyclist gather and see how quickly you will find yourself listening to experience and not sales pitches.

Maybe I belong on another board. I was hoping to learn and share in a mature manner. Asking too much? Can we keep it civil?

So, I hope to move any further discussion to a new thread so we can let this gentleman get our recommendations on a new motorcycle.

Regarding a new bike:
I too consider myself shorter than the typical German, 5'-8" with a 29" inseam (on a good day). I can get the bike around pretty well with the standard seat but wouild have preferred the low seat if it were available at time of purchase. I have heard some good things about the low seat being more comfortable too. The key thing is if you haven't had a chance to ride a Roadster you should get on one at a dealer as soon as you can and focus on rolling around the parking lot. BMW dealers are usually a very accommodating lot.

Good luck.

[Jed]

Please cite your reference where, in this thread, someone advised another to (given the choice) choose a non-ABS bike.

Settle, petal! The quote is from the post immdediately above that post - it would've take mere seconds to read it before you fired off prematurely. The point was not to tell non- or anti- ABS folk that they should or must get ABS, but to suggest they refrain from advocating other riders avoid safety technologies. The writer cited as simple fact that the new ABS is unintrusive until it saves you, and that in the real world ABS will always beat "skills" - a valid viewpoint, and also true in my experience. So perhaps you could hop back into your (soap) box. In any event, the consensus on this board would appear to be heavily in favour of ABS.

Firstly, that wasn't a quote - it was a paraphrase inaccurately presented as a quote.

As for, "You should develop the skills..." That's a pathetic excuse to avoid proven safety technology! Nobody has the skills to panic-stop on a slippery road.

Here's what was really said:

I believe that we should develop our skills so that ABS takes care of the odd extreme emergency. I don't think it is something that should come to be relied upon because we do not want to learn the proper skills or just get lazy, neither of these bodes well for a long motorcycling future. I believe the same could be said for ASC.

That's a fair bit different from the characterization that ContraMoto presented. Later Chumley said:

So please don't use ABS as an excuse to bypass developing the proper skill set to keep from being an undersireable statistic. It would also be nice if this doesn't get beyond mature conversation.

Your response (even with the cute colors) still doesn't address my simple (and ABS-neutral) request . . so where's that reference again? I mean specifically, not in general. Show me the specific language you and/or ContraMoto found so offensive. Please, show me the quotes. I did read the previous posts, multiple times before I asked that a reference be cited. No one said don't buy ABS. What people said is that they were fine with their non-ABS rides, the previous generation ABS was problematic, the current generation ABS seems OK, and that people shouldn't use ABS as an excuse for not developing valuable skills relative to braking. Nice try at turning the argument around though, but I'm not the guy that started this crap. I only asked for a reference about what ContraMoto found so offensively anti-ABS. Hell, I even said "please" and then you jumped on me. I've said nothing about ABS one way or the other - so I have no idea what freaking (soap) box you are talking about. I must have missed the memo about you owning the moral high-ground.

ContraMoto was a bit too quick on the trigger finger. I called him out. You come to his defense and look even less aware of the issue in question by supporting his rant. Hint, you may want to re-read Chumley's post, this time with a less reactionary perspective. I guess having a mature and civil conversation about skills and ABS is too much for some people?

cheers,

[mogu83]

__________________________

Guys this is turning into an internet pissing contest.
It seems the consensus on ABS is that a few think it's a waste of money, some think it's nice if the bike has it, and some will pay extra for it.
It's just like $80 dollar helmets and $500 dollar helmets or stock suspension or $1,500 suspension all a matter of personal choice -- nothing to get excited about.

Very soon the nice weather will be here, and we still haven't helped Ricco decide if he should get a R1200R or a ST1300 (subject of post)

[Caroanbill]

Guys this is turning into an internet pissing contest.

Not from me, Harry - one (somewhat amused) shot is all I'll be getting off to a couple of guys who seemd overly argumentative and, I notice, are yet to put their $ where their mouth is.
(anyway, I think I'm done for all time after WILDPIG ... hi, Gilbert )

As to R12R vs ST1300, I'd have thought a bad back makes that a simple choice, especialy as all and sundry have assured the OP we ride our R12Rs great distances in all weather. The R vs RT choice is less clear (unless, like me, you live in tight inner city streets .. hence Vespa) - don's suggestion to hire both makes a lotta sense.

[Chumley]

If a true meaningful discussion is to be had one must read the entire post for a clear understanding. Meaningful discussion is hard and virtually meaningless when erroneous information is used, be it intentional or unintentional.

Quote from previous post: "If there were 2 bikes on the floor and one had ABS and one didn't I'd buy the one with ABS. But would a bike not having ABS keep me away, well I voted with my dollars."

In a post previous to that one, the one that probably started this debate, I stated that I purchased a 2010 without ABS. I believed that was clear.

In the past, as well as now, I am one who has informed many new riders and friends who do not embrace anything more than a leisurely cruise that ABS is out there. I openly discuss all technologies. I am a techie geek from the Silicon Valley. I try to make sure that my wife's bike(s) have ABS, but again not all manufacturers make them available. I want her to have it because she refuses to push herself to know more about where limits are. I assume that you all know how to do that in a graduated manner in a safe environment, maybe a class. She is skilled in many ways but she does not want to puch her envelope so I don't - and I worry more than I should have to. I understand.

I am one that belongs to a group of people, that must be rather unrepresented here, that believes that technology should not obviate skills. Reliance on technology is fine in a car but operating a motorcycle used to imply a much higher commitment to knowledge and safety. Developing good riding skills includes much more than braking but that is a big part of it. Again, to say that all you need is ABS just a simply stunning comment - one I never thought I would hear.

In light of comments by others above I firmly believe that most of the members of this board should insist on ABS on their bikes. The biggest part of the ride is the mental one. If ABS, ASC, etc... makes you feel more comfrotable then that is fine. I just come from a school of thought where riding skills are paramount and the aids of modern technology are just icing on the cake. I will personally still eat the cake without icing but I like icing too.

Ride safe, please don't close your eyes and never text while riding.

True that the landscape has changed here.