To ABS or not to ABS?

[rockbottom]

After the warranty work, I'm kind of surprised you stuck with the same manufacturer! I had an H-D that was always in the shop under warranty.....I'll never buy another.
Lyle

I thought long and hard about going to a Triumph. It came down to the the Triumph dealer being 35 miles away and the BMW dealer being 5. I harangued BMW about all the problems until they gave me $1800 off of the R1200R just to make me leave them alone.

I think with the F bikes, BMW tried to go lower price while keeping all of the technology. I will say this--the F was a hoot to ride when it wasn't in the shop. Kind of like a British or Italian sports car.

[rockbottom]

A little story about ABS here in Northern Ontario.

Mother of four, in her van (admittedly not a bike) was coming to a stop on a slight down slope for a train at a rather nasty crossing. Very icy dirt road, after a night of freezing rain. I guess her van would not stop......one of the two surviving children heard "..a chattering noise...." as his mother tried desperately to stop the van. Her last words were "....GET OUT, I CAN'T STOP....". Two kids bailed out, and she and one other child continued into the train.....both died.

Now WE know to flick the transmission into neutral, or engage the clutch.....apparently she did NOT know this...?
Lyle

Thing is, for every episode like that, I'll bet there are dozens if not hundreds where ABS saved a crash. Plus, on ice nothing is going to stop you, ABS or not ABS.

[AllanCook]

ABS increases cost, but it also increases the margin of safety. I had the opportunity to try it out a few months ago on my R1200R, my first bike with ABS. The added expense was worth every penny and probably saved me from very serious injury. I can't understand why anyone with any sense at all would willingly forgo this amazing technology.

[sky_sailor]

ABS increases cost, but it also increases the margin of safety. I had the opportunity to try it out a few months ago on my R1200R, my first bike with ABS. The added expense was worth every penny and probably saved me from very serious injury. I can't understand why anyone with any sense at all would willingly forgo this amazing technology.

Agreed, but don't you feel you may have put yourself in a position once or twice that you would not have been in, without ABS?

Does it breed false confidence? Yes, it can save your bacon, but would your bacon be in the fire in the first place had you been riding a non-ABS equipped bike? Thoughts?
Lyle

[Jed]

Yes - there are always those exceptionally skilled riders who can out-brake the ABS brain... in ideal conditions. Unfortunately - I can't always ride in ideal conditions, and when it gets sloppy out, or that deer jumps out in front of me, I appreciate the ABS. Pull that lever as hard as I can and stop right now without worrying about locking up and washing out.

But of course - the exceptionally skilled riders never experience the less then ideal conditions I guess (and although I've been riding since 1973.. I still think I have more to learn. Mebbe someday I'll be one of those skilled riders.)

With all due respect . . .

Why do ABS supporters take jabs at those who are comfortable without ABS? I don't consider myself an expert rider but I know where and when the front wheel will lock how to modulate my front brake such it doesn't slide out. I bought my bike because it didn't have "always-on ABS". Had BMW offered a way to disengage ABS when I didn't want ABS, then I would have gone that route.

I agree that for most people and most situations ABS is a great thing. But that doesn't mean that the lack of ABS is a bad thing. ABS is mostly good, but it is not perfect and it is not infallible. I chose non-ABS because I prefer to manage my own level of risk. I'm uncomfortable letting a machine decide on my behalf what it is I want to do when I am perfectly capable and competent to make those decisions and take actions for myself.

I don't fault anyone else for coming to a different conclusion for themselves. It sound like you think your personal choice should be everyone else's choice. Forgive me if I misread your intention but you seem to be poking fun at so-called "exceptionally skilled riders", equating non-ABS types as being over confident in their skills. In 40 years of life with motorcycles, I've never ridden in ideal conditions and I don't consider myself skilled enough to outperform ABS in a panic stop. But I do consider myself to have enough skill, judgement and experience to know how to avoid having to make a panic stop. I've "chirped" my front wheel once in anger (over the last 10K miles) and I consider that event a failure of judgement on my part. I should not have needed to slow down so quickly. I regularly practice panic stops, and locking my front wheel so that front brake control will be intuitive for me when I need it most. I do drive quickly, but quickly is not the same as reckless or dangerously.

By all means be happy and confident with your choices, but please don't presume to know what is best for me.

Are you familiar with the concepts of Risk Homeostasis or Risk Compensation?

** Caution - WikiPedia reference **
Anti-lock brakes
There are at least three studies which show that drivers' response to antilock brakes is to drive faster, follow closer and brake later, accounting for the failure of ABS to result in any measurable improvement in road safety. The studies were performed in Canada, Denmark and Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_homeostasis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

cheers,

[rockbottom]

Agreed, but don't you feel you may have put yourself in a position once or twice that you would not have been in, without ABS?

Does it breed false confidence? Yes, it can save your bacon, but would your bacon be in the fire in the first place had you been riding a non-ABS equipped bike? Thoughts?
Lyle

You could make the same argument about wearing a helmet. I had about five hard stops on my non ABS bike and found myself locking the rear every time. I haven't had a hard stop on my ABS bike. Could just be coincidence though.

[deilenberger]

As I said - (and perhaps we need a tongue in cheek smiley) - if you are that confident that you'll be able to out-brake a computer - have at it. It literally is no skin off my back.

The woman on the icy hill - the outcome is unlikely to have been different without ABS. Since she had ABS, it's possible to still steer the car (unlike when the wheels simply lock) - so driving off the road to avoid the train might have been a possibility (or not - depending on the terrain.) Was the ABS the cause of her death? I don't think so - I think driver error of driving too fast for conditions was, just the ABS couldn't save her from that mistake.

I have never triggered the ABS in a panic situation on the R12R, it seems to have a higher threshold (or the better tires help) then the older ABS systems on bikes.

I do know that in a panic situation, I can't count on my right foot not hitting the rear brake as hard as it can (lots of deer jumps on my old K100RT proved that to me - and I ended up adding ABS to that bike just because of that.) Before ABS I got very good at riding out a locked wheel, and several times keeping the bike from high-siding.

Anyone who is so skilled as to know exactly when a front wheel is going to be at maximum traction/braking threshold is a way better rider then I am, especially in sloppy conditions and a panic stop. Good for you and good luck to you! I know my limitations - and am thankful there is something that helps compensate for them.

A final comment: If you're regularly triggering the ABS on one of these bikes - then I might suggest you consider another hobby. It's good - but sooner or later it won't save you. You're following too close, or riding too aggressively. As the woman in the van did - you're riding too fast or too close for the conditions.

[Boxer-Lust]

I would NEVER buy another bike without ABS.
In europe all bikes being sold from 2017 on have to have ABS brakes.
The R1200R with ABS is the shortest stopping bike period.
Stops faster than even the hottest superbikes on the market who all don't have ABS except for the S1000RR and CBR1000RR.
Todays ABS systems take nothing away.
Even the "best rider" will crash when a car suddenly pulls out in front of him and he panic stops,grabs the brake and locks the front...
I'd rather save on accessories but would always get the ABS-option
A BMW without ABS is a true "keeper"...

[hjsbmw]

I do know that in a panic situation, I can't count on my right foot not hitting the rear brake as hard as it can

I never blocked the front wheel on other motorcycles but have mucho experience with blocking the rear. This has never happened on the Roadster, but I have never felt the ABS come on either except during some brute force horse play experiments on gravel. I attribute the solid braking with the R mainly to the linked brakes. ABS is more of a confidence bonus, so far, to me.
I was very skeptical to get ABS, actually, due to the added cost and what I thought would be a lot more maintenance that requires 'hooking up to the computer'. Although one of the dealers I spoke to insists you need 'the computer' to bleed the brakes I have not seen a reference to said equipment in the factory manual. Also, I had concerns because it's yet another part that can fail. In the end I am happy with having it though.

[deilenberger]

And the statistics on accidents involving cars are not reflected by the statistics on bikes. I just saw something about a month ago about the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety - where bikes with ABS are 18% less likely to be in a fatal crash. If the URL passes by me again, I'll post it here.

Ah -Google to the rescue!

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/man ... otorcycles

I was completely wrong. It's 37% less fatal accidents, not 18%. Part of that might be that owners who buy bikes with ABS are more safety concious - but I suspect there is still a significant ABS contributing factor in the reduction in accidents. There is also a 22% reduction in overall claims. This study is from April 2010.

According to new study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), bikes with antilocks versus those without are 37 percent less likely to be in fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years. A separate analysis by the affiliated Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) of insurance claims filed for damage to motorcycles backs this up.

Bike models with antilocks have 22 percent fewer claims for damage per insured vehicle year (a vehicle year is one vehicle insured for one year, two insured for six months, etc.) than the same models without antilocks.

Read more: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2 ... z14wM20mAG

Like I said - do what'cha want, and good luck! I know I won't buy or even ride a bike without ABS.

[xprof]

I've had a Prius with ABS for 5 years. Only activated the ABS once, hard, but it saved the entire car! On my "R" I get a lot of ABS feedback when using just the rear brake on dirt, which is a bit annoying, but haven't used the full system yet. I bet that when I do, I'll be glad I have it!

[rockbottom]

The R1200R with ABS is the shortest stopping bike period.

When I retook the Experienced Rider's Course in September, it was raining so only two students showed up--me and a guy on a full dresser Harley (which, of course, did not have ABS). On a wet course, it was absolutely comical to compare my quick stops to his.

[AllanCook]

ABS increases cost, but it also increases the margin of safety. I had the opportunity to try it out a few months ago on my R1200R, my first bike with ABS. The added expense was worth every penny and probably saved me from very serious injury. I can't understand why anyone with any sense at all would willingly forgo this amazing technology.

Agreed, but don't you feel you may have put yourself in a position once or twice that you would not have been in, without ABS?

Does it breed false confidence? Yes, it can save your bacon, but would your bacon be in the fire in the first place had you been riding a non-ABS equipped bike? Thoughts?
Lyle

Sure, there would have been an emergency with or without ABS. A driver suddenly turned left in front of me, no signal, no nothing. I managed to stop about 3 inches before broadsiding her. I'm pretty sure my ABS gave me that three inches. I can't prove it, but I'm pretty sure I would have hit her or locked up and slid out without ABS.

I do not ride outside my own personal margin of safety, with or without ABS. I don't think that I can do something stupid just because I have ABS. I don't push the envelope thinking that ABS will save me if things go badly. Honestly, I don't even think about having ABS, but I'm damn glad it's there if I need to make a sudden, controlled stop.

[dbrick]

I do not ride outside my own personal margin of safety, with or without ABS. I don't think that I can do something stupid just because I have ABS. I don't push the envelope thinking that ABS will save me if things go badly. Honestly, I don't even think about having ABS, but I'm damn glad it's there if I need to make a sudden, controlled stop.

[dbrick]

Only activated the ABS once, hard, but it saved the entire car!

BTDT. VW Passat, 10 years, one ABS activation. The other car exited a parking lot right into my path, even 'tho there was no impaired visibility. I got on the brakes immediately and hard. The ABS activated. The other car inexplicably slowed. There was *just* enough room between that car and the parked car on the right for my car to fit between them...not even 6" on each side, I'm sure. ABS allowed steering control, and I threaded the needle successfully.

[websterize]

I occasionally practice panic stops in a nearby church parking lot, and the ABS is remarkable. Between it, TPM and ASC, and commuting in daily city traffic, I need all the electronic insurance BMW offers.

[sky_sailor]

And the statistics on accidents involving cars are not reflected by the statistics on bikes. I just saw something about a month ago about the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety - where bikes with ABS are 18% less likely to be in a fatal crash.

Don, while I would rather have ABS, than not have it, all things being equal, the statistic you quote here could simply reflect the simple fact, that most bikes that are ABS equipped, are ridden by persons of an older age group than non-ABS bikes? ie. higher end, more expensive motorcycles ridden by more experienced, mature riders.

Do not misinterpret my "debate" on the side of non-ABS, in any way that I'm against ABS. Safety first. However, statistics can be used to back up pretty much any argument.

I must wonder how many of us survived the era before ABS? I feel very comfortable without ABS, perhaps because I'm older, and wiser?

[mogu83]

[quote="sky_sailor]I must wonder how many of us survived the era before ABS? I feel very comfortable without ABS, perhaps because I'm older, and wiser?[/quote]

I tried to stay out of this because it's degenerated into a debate about the worth of ABS and has wandered from the original question:
Are there people out there who may be riding one without ABS that could comment on their experiences?
Addressed to the people riding without ABS.

As far as surviving the era before ABS. I can't tell where sky_sailor lives (no name or location in profile) but in the Northeast twenty years ago (pre-ABS) the traffic was a lot lighter, people had some (admittedly only some) respect for the other drivers on the road, people weren't using cell phones or texting, most motorcycles could barely get over the ton, and reflexes were a lot faster (speaking for myself).
ABS is just another feature in the evolution of the motorcycle, it follows suspension on both ends, electric starters, tubeless tires, hydraulic disk brakes, synthetic lubricants, halogen headlights, electronic ignition, fuel injection and a few I forgot. Many when they were introduced were condemned as stupid, unnecessary or taking away the TRUE essence of the motorcycle, but all of them allowed the young fast guys (with something to prove) and the old experienced guys (who just want to see what's over the next hill) ride longer (in years and miles) and safer.
I would imagine in the near future ABS and some kind of traction control will be as common on road bikes as electronic ignition or fuel injection.

[Jed]

I tried to stay out of this because it's degenerated into a debate about the worth of ABS and has wandered from the original question:
Are there people out there who may be riding one without ABS that could comment on their experiences?
Addressed to the people riding without ABS.

Agreed. We should get back to the OP's topic.

I bought my 2010 R12R without ABS, . . on purpose. I wasn't sure that BMW had sorted out the early problems they had with ABS on motorcycles. I've been riding and defining my limits and the limits of my machines for 35 years. I've had no problems in 12K miles on this R12R and certainly don't miss what I never had. I'm comfortable controlling my bike using time-tested techniques. I am not anti-ABS, but I do realize and accept that every design choice involves trade-offs of some kind. From everything I've read it seems that BMW has the ABS pretty well sorted out these days.

In the future, I would not avoid buying a bike with ABS but I would prefer an ABS disconnection switch like BMW includes on the GS models. Don brings up a good point about resale value - bikes with BMW's current ABS will sell for more money than bikes without ABS. If I thought I would sell my R12R after a short time, then I might have thought more about getting one with ABS. Not because I wanted or needed it but because it would make the bike easier to sell and bring a higher price. But I bought this bike to keep for a long time, so the lack of ABS doesn't bother me at all.

In actual riding, I don't wish that I had ABS nor do I celebrate that I don't have ABS. I just ride my non-ABS bike the same way I would ride any bike - staying keenly aware of the current conditions and available traction. It is a normal part of my riding both on bikes and in cars to constantly be checking for traction limits. This isn't something I have to remind myself to check, managing traction is a normal part of operating any vehicle for me.

From a safety perspective - modern BMW ABS seems to be a no-brainer - get it if you can. Just don't imagine that the world is going to stop spinning just because a bike doesn't have ABS.

cheers and enjoy - it's good to have choices!

[deilenberger]

And the statistics on accidents involving cars are not reflected by the statistics on bikes. I just saw something about a month ago about the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety - where bikes with ABS are 18% less likely to be in a fatal crash.

Don, while I would rather have ABS, than not have it, all things being equal, the statistic you quote here could simply reflect the simple fact, that most bikes that are ABS equipped, are ridden by persons of an older age group than non-ABS bikes? ie. higher end, more expensive motorcycles ridden by more experienced, mature riders.

No argument, in my post on the data, I said:

I was completely wrong. It's 37% less fatal accidents, not 18%. Part of that might be that owners who buy bikes with ABS are more safety concious - but I suspect there is still a significant ABS contributing factor in the reduction in accidents. There is also a 22% reduction in overall claims. This study is from April 2010.

And I agree - the majority of people who own a bike with ABS are older and more experienced. Thing is - as you get older your reflexes start slowing down, so that may balance out the "older" aspect (there is a good "Older Rider Course" you can borrow from the BMW-MOA/Foundation if your local club is BMW-MOA chartered. One of the tests in it is for reflexes - and response time. It was pretty amazing the wide range we got out of the 20 or so people who took the course. Some people were scary slow (I was scary blind in one eye - but I got that fixed with the bionic eye..)

I must wonder how many of us survived the era before ABS? I feel very comfortable without ABS, perhaps because I'm older, and wiser?

We also were a lot faster in your youth.. could see better, didn't ache as much, and tended to bounce not break when coming off our dirty bikes. I'd love to get back into dirty biking again as I approach retirement, but the lack of riding spots in NJ, and brittle old bones is sorta holding me back. I can remember when....

But I digress.

Good discussion BTW - and have to agree with Jed's summary:

cheers and enjoy - it's good to have choices!

Keep the rubber side down..