problem externalizing fuel filter

[Dr. Strangelove]

[b]NOTE! The first picture is labeled INCORRECTLY. See the later picture WITHOUT the text[/b]


I ran into a problem externalizing the fuel filter according to the plan as put forth in

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19988&start=0



in the above picture the top most left nipple is marked In

as is the nipple on the left of the filter. So I have the IN s facing each other. Are fuel filters so unidirectional?

Do I have the flow backward on the filter? I have leaks in that limb. The other is unaffected, I think.

The first leak I saw was right at the quick disconnect. I tightened only that clamp and leaks then appeared elsewhere on that limb, or maybe they were there, but they got worse.

Any help appreciated

John

[reddingrdr]

You have the IN to the tank and the IN to the fuel filter facing each other. That's not the way it should work. Also you have the fuel filter on the IN or return to the tank to the tank. You're cleaning the excess fuel to the back to the tank Ron

[iowabeakster]

edit -- after consulting picutures from Macx's installation and the service manual...

At first read, I thought reddingrdr was correct. Now, I am not sure.

Macx has a female disconnect on the longer line with the filter. The service manual shows a male disconnect on the line that exits the tank... after passing through the stock internal filter. So, I think Macx looks to have swapped the disconnects around. The disconnects really don't matter...as long as the fuel lines connect properly. In other words, if all 4 disconnects were switched, it will work. If only 2 disconnects (i.e. on the tank) are switched around, you will have problems.

From the picures in the service manual (which are not great at showing this)... your filter seems to be on the correct fuel line (and correct direction). It looks the same as Macx's installation too (except for the flip-flopped disconnects).

Is there a chance that 2 of the disconnects got switched around?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Is there a chance that 2 of the disconnects got switched around?

Thanks for the response.
No chance...I did each one, each line separately and they wouldn't fit if crossed anyway.

But the direction of flow is correct? The In of the filter should be on the tank side of the line, as it is?

There was a description of the direction of fuel, the pathway, sometime back...that would probably be helpful. In med school a favorite test question was Trace a drop of blood from the toe to the brain to the liver, so you have to know the vascular anatomy to answer. That exercise would be useful here I think, tracing a drop of fuel from the Chevron, Shell Exxon, not BP, pump to the fuel injector.

J

[Rog(UK) - Yorkshire Dales]

I agree with Reddingdr that you have the filter the wrong way round. To me, the fact that they have actually put 'IN' on the filter means that it is the 'INLET' end. If they had wanted to match the particular end, they would have used the same single letter on each ie A -A, B - B etc.

Ride safely,

Rog

[Dr. Strangelove]

I agree with Reddingdr that you have the filter the wrong way round. To me, the fact that they have actually put 'IN' on the filter means that it is the 'INLET' end. If they had wanted to match the particular end, they would have used the same single letter on each ie A -A, B - B etc.

Ride safely,

Rog

Thank you, Rog.
So, I should
1) switch the limbs on the flange and the connectors on the bike side
2) reverse the direction of the filter

Is that correct?
That would mean everything I could do wrong I did.

That is not the picture in Macx link though.

And thanks for the advice; a graphic of the direction of flow would be great

John

[reddingrdr]

Okay, I failed at putting up a diagram from the manual. Let me see if I can say this a little differently w/o referencing the connectors. With the IN on the tank and the IN on the filter facing each other, you are asking the fuel to go two different directions. Fuel flow direction thru the filter can matter. Also, with the filter on the return line ( the IN line to the tank ) the only fuel being filtered is the fuel back to the tank. And this would not include fuel being taken from the tank. IMHO! At least that is the way I see it. I don't know if the connectors are right but the tank OUT should supply the injector. Hope this is more help than confusion. Ron

[Dr. Strangelove]

Hope this is more help than confusion. Ron

Thanks, Ron and getting there.

With the IN on the tank and the IN on the filter facing each other, you are asking the fuel to go two different directions.

understand...that would mean the filter should be turned 180 degrees to allow unfettered flow through.

with the filter on the return line ( the IN line to the tank ) the only fuel being filtered is the fuel back to the tank. And this would not include fuel being taken from the tank.

so, that would mean that the filter should be on the other limb --and facing the same direction as it does now--in order to head toward the injectors rather than away from it--as it is now

I don't know if the connectors are right but the tank OUT should supply the injector

In the current arrangement, the line with the filter on it, i.e., the line connected to the nipple labeled IN, is connected to the bottom black (injector) fuel line and the other is connected to the upper black line. I don't have access to a picture at this time, but it sounds like those connections are correct, notwithstanding the filter fitting.

Sorry to be perhaps so dense on this.

John

[macx]

edit -- after consulting picutures from Macx's installation and the service manual...

At first read, I thought reddingrdr was correct. Now, I am not sure.

Macx has a female disconnect on the longer line with the filter. The service manual shows a male disconnect on the line that exits the tank... after passing through the stock internal filter. So, I think Macx looks to have swapped the disconnects around. The disconnects really don't matter...as long as the fuel lines connect properly. In other words, if all 4 disconnects were switched, it will work. If only 2 disconnects (i.e. on the tank) are switched around, you will have problems.

From the picures in the service manual (which are not great at showing this)... your filter seems to be on the correct fuel line (and correct direction). It looks the same as Macx's installation too (except for the flip-flopped disconnects).

Is there a chance that 2 of the disconnects got switched around?

Hi, Macx here. I purposely flipped 2 of the disconnects so I wouldn't screw up and connect the wrong ones
together. Not that I ever screw up - - :-/ They're not "flow directional" so doesn't matter which way they're installed.

Just BTW I saw a post on this quite recently where the installer used a short piece of hard tubing to replace the
internal fuel filtr instead of a long loop of hose - MUCH easier / cleaner / simpler!! Dont' know why I didn't, maybe
a brain fart about having too many hose clamps or something? Who knows. Only thing, I would make a slight flare
on each end, or something like that, so the hose could not slip off when the clamp is tight. Don't know if that person
did that or not. You'd just have to be careful not to make too sharp of an edge on the flare so it cuts the inside of the hose, or file the sharp edge down, or something like that.

Have got over 5k on my external filter setup with no problems.

[Sunbeemer]

Doc, from looking at the picture of the inside of the tank's fuel pump assembly flange in your previous post



I think you got it right the way you did it.


The fuel pump is outputting to the hose nipple closest to the edge of the flange, which is the hose you want to put the filter on since it feeds the injectors, and the direction of flow is from the tank to the injectors, so the "IN" nipple should be receiveing from the fuel pump, as it is in your configuration. I'd say it's a Good Job!

As far as your leaks are concerned, you probably now have slightly higher fuel pressure at the external filter inlet, so a tight clamp there will be important. Downstream of the filter the fuel pressure should be what it was prior to "externalizing" the filter. Good terminology BTW!

Maybe the other leak by the QD occurred while wiggling the hoses during fabrication.

[iowabeakster]

Here're the pictures from the manual. Since I don't have a fuel pump to flip over in my hands, I couldn't figure it out. From the directional arrow on the stock filter, it should be pretty clear.

Sunbeemer's reasoning above is the same as mine.

[Dr. Strangelove]

so, do you all think the IN of the filter should be "facing " the "out" arrow on the flange, in other words just as it is or should it be turned 180 degrees?

and thanks for the help

[Dr. Strangelove]

some more info.

Here is a better picture of the flange area. The nipple that is pointing "down" or iow, in the direction of the opening of the nipple is continuous with the line inside that is the one in-line w the fuel pump. So, It would appear that I did have it right the first time, at least on the correct limb as the filter would only be somewhat down the line from the original.




That line connects to the bottom fuel line in this picture



I realize that my original picture mislabeled the nipple and that did not help

And with the filter labeled IN on the end closest to the pump/nipple/ flange/ etc., it would also appear that I had it in the correct orientation....right???

So, that leaves as a cause of the leak(s) insufficient oomph on the FI hose clamps.

Thoughts?

and big thanks, peeps.

John

[iowabeakster]

I think you had it exactly correct (except labeling the photograph).

"Insufficient oomph" would be my only explanation.

[Dr. Strangelove]

ok, then

I have switched out the FI clamps for another set that seem to fit a little tighter and I have screwed them down all the way. I will put the tank back on tomorrow morning and pray. If it still leaks I am thinking I may go back to the internal filter just to put it back the way I found it. I'll see if there is a suitable filter at Advance auto or pep boys

Thanks everyone for the help

[reddingrdr]

I stand corrected, I did not see the arrows. Good luck! Ron

[Dr. Strangelove]

I hid them, Ron, just to make sure you were paying attention

But even so, your comments were helpful and spurred discussion and that is appreciated. Welcome to the board.

John

Gonna go reconnect the tank in a few, after my second mug of coffee.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Is the saga over? Possibly!!

Went to pep boys and bought new FI clamps. Installed them, same size they fit tighter. Maybe the old ones stretched a bit?

Reinstalled.

Turn on ignition. Fuel lines are clean, it appears, but after about 20-30 seconds drip drip drip from rear edge of tank this time.

Tank comes off again, and the lines look clean, but maybe leaking from O ring?? Undo 6 bolts and maybe O-ring was out of the groove superiorly? maybe not, but it could be. Re tighten flange and O-ring looks to be seated properly (just as it was on all previous excursions, and it was a new one when I started) It looked like there was gas between the flange and the tank, so I am thinking it was malpositioning of the O ring no matter what it seemed on previous installs.

Re install the tank, but do not secure the oil coolers and I leave the tank propped up with fuel lines and fuel pump connected. I have a direct view of all connectors and the big flange.

Aside to Riceburner---I am not able to match your time of taking the fuel pump apparatus out and putting it back in 10 minutes yet, but I am getting a whole lot better at it. There is a trick and that is install it with the whole flange apparatus rotated counter clockwise, then twist clockwise to your mark. That makes connecting those two damn hoses a whole lot easier on the inside and it sort of pops into place with far less body English and half the cursing.

Fill the tank about half way

Turn on the ignition, not turning over the engine, fuel pump pressurizes. I see no leaks!!! At any of the connectors, nor around the flange.
No drip drip drip.

Turn the engine over, rev it. No apparent leaks!!!

Re install the coolers and all else. Check again and still looking good. It is time for a ride, but cannot get out of the driveway because 5 grandkids are over here swimming and cars block me.

But, I may have done it.

I think.

I hope.

I pray.

I left the black shroud on the right side off for now.

Geez

If there is a God, She rides a Honda.

[Sunbeemer]

"Good Job!"

Remember the recall about the fuel lines and QD's? My fuel lines started leaking when they were only two years old which I stopped temporarily by pinching the crimp-style hose clamps a little tighter, but eventually replaced them. The recall described how the hose inside the fuel hose, e.g the one inside the braid, was cracking along its length (longitudinally) which was noticeable by closely inspecting the cut ends for cracks against the barbs of the QD's. Mine were like that.

You might want to take a real close look at the hose ends to see if the inside hose is splitting at the inside circumference just for good measure.

[Dr. Strangelove]

I put new hoses on for this job, and right now, even though I haven't ridden it yet, it ain't broke, so I am not going to look for something to fix.

I got Stella! in Dec 05 and the hose recall must've been before I received her. though she was still sporting the OEM QDs.