Clutch Problems

[VSK]

Hey all,

Have been lurking this forum for a while (since I started obsessing over a 1200r). Finally bought one 2 weeks ago (will post pictures in the long running picture thread). Unfortunately my first post is to actually get views on a problem.

The level in my clutch fluid level looked a little suspect so I took it to the local BMW dealer. He immediately said that it was a tad too high and said he could fix the level in a few minutes. I am quite happy at this point as I had not taken an appointment or anything and had just shown up at the service center.

I ride out of their parking lot feeling quite satisfied with the service but within 10 minutes the following happens to me 3 times. Stopped at a light - pop into neutral. Put into first gear in anticipation of the light turning green with the clutch pulled in. and while the clutch is pulled in I feel the (hydraulic?) pressure releasing and the bike starting to inch forward as if I had released the lever. Freaked the hell out of me each time it happend (was in peak hour London traffic) and had to hit the kill switch or stall the bike each time to deal with the problem. So I called the dealer from the side of the road and he asks me to bring the bike back in. Try to replicate the problem at the service center and happens at the 10th attempt. At this point the guy has started to (a) say that there is nothing wrong even though I made him hold the clutch while the lever went limp and the bike stalled, and (b) blaming the hand guards (his excuse was that the lever was hitting the edge of the hand guards even though I know for a fact that it wasnt) or my riding style saying that I should be putting the bike in neutral at lights (which I do anyway though i monitor my rear view mirrors for any guy out to commit vehicular man slaughter). #

Finally, I decide that I am not getting anywhere with him and I have a doctor's appointment so I leave and I dont have a problem on my way home. But I know it did happen several times and they all happend after he attempted to 'fix' the fluid level in my clutch reservoir. i have had the bike for 2 weeks now and have been commuting in heavy London traffic but this didnt occur until after the visit to the service center.

I bought the bike under the approved used bike program so I am not too worried as any problems (hopefully) should be covered. but was planning a long weekend ride and this has made me paranoid.

Any diagnosis? I wouldnt call myself very mechanical competent but I know when my bike isnt riding as it should be. Thanks.

VSK

[AncientMariner]

If you'll pardon my flipancy, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Please tell us the age and mileage on your bike. I'm sure one of our wizards may have a suggestion.

Congratulations and welcome aboard! You'll get this sorted out in good time, and have a love afair with your bike.

Bruce

[Mollygrubber]

Welcome to the board VSK, too bad your first post was regarding an issue.

I'm no mechanic but it sounds like you're losing hydraulic pressure while the clutch is pulled in. Maybe the "mechanic" introduced some air into the system? I'd take it back in ASAP were I you.

Hope you get it resolved, your bike is too nice to not get ridden as it should.

Peter

[VSK]

Bike has 6500 miles and is an '06. I know it was not used for a while and was one of the reasons I hesitated before buying it but I figured that any problems would come out in the first year itself while I still had the approved used bike warranty.

I am going to take it in next week but need to find another service center. The one I went to today pissed me off by their attitude. Instead of trying to diagnos the prblem they were busy denying that there was anything wrong or trying to blame it on me. I have generally heard and read good things about bmw dealers so this one is probably an exception. Its the same reason I ended up buying my bike from a dealer 200 miles from London instead of the one 2 miles from me.

Bruce, Peter - thanks for the warm welcome. I already love the bike and looking forward to putting in long miles this summer.

[blueviewlaguna]

Welcome aboard! - if the bike was sitting, then an external or internal seal leak (either master or slave cylinder) is a good possibility. Check around the slave cylinder banjo fitting at the rear of the transmission for external leaks (I am sure you would have noticed any external leaks near the master/lever area - if dry, then internal is likely (leak is moving ahead of the piston seal back into the low pressure side). For safety's sake, I would not ride until it was resolved since the leak may not be stable and cause you to lurch into traffic.

Air introduced into the system would result in a spongy lever, but not gradual leak-down from a dis-engaged clutch to one that is starting to engage. If enough air is introduced, then it will not dis-engage the clutch at all. Even with air in the system, the situation would be a constant one - not a leak-down, leaving the seals suspect. As to which side has the bad seals, if it were my bike, I would push for the bad side to get replaced under warranty (master or slave to solve the issue, then pay for the other side out-of-pocket since it was exposed to the same conditions and may not be far behind, then you can just pay for a single flush and bleed at the dealer and enjoy a fresh hydraulic clutch system without worries.

Bike has 6500 miles and is an '06. I know it was not used for a while and was one of the reasons I hesitated before buying it but I figured that any problems would come out in the first year itself while I still had the approved used bike warranty.

I am going to take it in next week but need to find another service center. The one I went to today pissed me off by their attitude. Instead of trying to diagnos the prblem they were busy denying that there was anything wrong or trying to blame it on me. I have generally heard and read good things about bmw dealers so this one is probably an exception. Its the same reason I ended up buying my bike from a dealer 200 miles from London instead of the one 2 miles from me.

Bruce, Peter - thanks for the warm welcome. I already love the bike and looking forward to putting in long miles this summer.

[rtallent]

Welcome to the board, VSK.

I can't add to the technical advice you're receiving, but I will say that I would strongly suggest not leaving the bike in neutral at a stop light. I leave mine in first gear with the clutch pulled in and continually check the mirrors for an inattentive driver coming up behind me. I also leave adequate distance between me and the car in front of me so I can get away quickly if need be rather than be rear-ended.

Good luck with your problem.

[VSK]

Blueviewlaguna - thanks. I will check for the leaks but I am almost certain that there were none visible. Out of curiosity - any guesses on the total cost of replacing a slave cylinder if I didnt have the warrant?

I am going to take this in to be looked over. Anyone have recommendations on bmw dealerships around the London area apart from Park Lane BMW?

Bob - point taken. I usually drop it in neutral after a couple of cars have come to a standstill behind me but obviously the safest would be to keep it in gear for a speedy getaway.

[Dad2g5]

He probably sucked all of the fluid out then refilled possibly getting air in the system if it hasnt happened again that was the issue. i wouldnt worry about it. hydraulic clutch systems bleed themselves. that bleeder valve on the slave cylinder is useless. In my years of wrenching just pump the $hit out of the pedal(lever) till it feels good(the second you open that bleeder valve your screwed!). Let me know how you make out.

[Dad2g5]

Also the reason to leave it in 1st gear at a light besides safety is you ruin your 1st gear every time you bang into it. Bikes are not like cars that have syncros between the gears.

[deilenberger]

Leaking down might be air but it mostly should result in a mushy feel to the lever.. not a slow engagement of the clutch. When he finally did recognize that it was a problem did he check for leaks? I suspect he used the bleeder down on the slave cylinder to remove some fluid from the system (the only other way is to remove the cap on the reservoir, and that might be messy).. if he didn't fully tighten the bleeder - and it continued leaking - that could have caused the problem. If he then snugged it up when you returned (and it is tightened to just snug with a 4" wrench - do not gorilla the thing, you'll break it..) that would account for the problem going away.

Earlier (early oilhead) clutch slave cylinders were known for leaking - and the leak wasn't really visible on the outside of the bike.. they would bleed into the clutch assembly and soak the clutch disk, making a $200 job into a $1200 job. That is the reason BMW went to mineral oil on the clutch, it's lots easier on the seals and it doesn't absorb moisture. Haven't heard of this happening on hexheads, but there is always a first. A way to avoid it on oilheads was making a strategically placed hole for the leaking fluid to drain away without contaminating the clutch. I haven't heard anyone who thought this worth doing on the hexheads.

From memory - the hexhead slave cylinder is quite accessable - and it wouldn't be a big deal (this is from memory) to unscrew the two bolts holding it in and pull it back to make sure it's not leaking. That's from memory (and I'm a bit too lazy to put my shoes on and wander to the garage..) If it was my bike, that's what I'd do. If the dealer you take it to is cooperative, perhaps you can convince him to do it.

Leaking on the master-cylinder (lever-cylinder) would be rather obvious since it would be drooling down the assembly. It's vaguely possible that cylinder had an internal seal leak that you can't easily eyeball, but normally those don't fix themselves.

HTH,

[rtallent]

VSK:

What happened? Did your dealer take care of you?

[psycle.vt]

At about 1600 miles on the bike, I started noticing it was a bit hard downshifting sometimes and then when starting up, only the slightest release of the clutch level would allow the bike to start inching forward - not what I expected from a new bike (albeit one that had its 6(7)00 mile service done). Took it back to the dealer and they just drained and refilled the clutch system. So far, no more issues, but he said if it happened again he would order a new assembly. If I make it back from Ohio without problems, then I guess it was a bad fluid change the 1st time.

[VSK]

Sorry - havent checked in for a while. I finally took the bike up to a dealer in Guildford. Way better service than the London. They basically drained and refilled the clutch system again and that seemed to have solved the problem. I have not had that problem recur for about a month now so am keeping my fingers crossed! Thanks for everyone's inputs and will keep y'all posted.