Let's make a list of big $ repairs

[sweatmark]

In spite of the potential big $ repairs, here are two reason I'm keeping my stubborn-old-mule Rockster:

1. I like my BMW dealer. They're good folks, make us feel at home when we come to call/drool, and do business in a prudent and professional manner. Yes, they charge full price for parts, but I'll throw them some bones as part of my ownership experience knowing that we get plenty back in return.

2. I like this message board. Note that we've got a contentious topic thread here that hits both emotions and pocketbooks, and yet nobody's gone ALL CAPS postal or dropped the f-bomb (perhaps a justifiable reaction to particular R1150 woes). This is a good place.

[Boxer]

You should be able to preempt any major unexpected breakdowns by doing routine maintenance and "planned" replacement of parts that wear out. This is not the case with BMWs these days. You just don't really know what to expect when you're thousands of miles from home on a bike with the "out-of-warranty" 36,000 miles on it.

I have 79K+ good miles on mine and once I became "unsure" of its dependability and lost confidence I was fearful of taking her too far from home.

My 2003 model coil gave me ample warning and that cost me $300 for parts and labor at a nice BMW shop in Bentonville, Ark. Two shocks were VERY worn out by the time I replaced them, and Rob helped me put in a new big FD bearing pre-emptively but discovered a driveshaft about to go south in the process. Those parts (bearings and seals) were less that $200.

I'm convinced my clutch splines and clutch itself were next on the list for replacement, along with some head work on the valves but that's just speculation based on mileage and what Rob saw on his own bike at 60K miles when he opened it up.

[challey]

Warning: Long post

Let’s define high-cost as any repair costing more than $1,000. Seems to me that there are 3 types of high-cost repairs.

Type 1 – failures requiring repairs/renewals occurring as result of normal wear. While occasionally expensive, these "failures" should be expected and will occur regardless of the make of the motorcycle. Shocks fall into this category - all bikes will require new ones at some point as a simple function of time and use. In the case of BMW’s generally and the R1150R in particular, this repair is likely to be somewhat more costly than on other marques and similar models because of the unique suspension design. So the trade off that BMW owners make is a more stable, better handling bike but at somewhat higher initial and long-term ownership cost.

Type 2 – those failures that are not predicted and are unexpected in normal use but that can be relatively easily prevented. The wire harness failure that I experienced (along with Toolingalong and apparently quite a few other R bike owners) falls into this category. In this case, the harness meltdowns can be almost totally prevented by frequent inspection and some minor, inexpensive modifications such as the addition strategically placed insulation on the harness and/or chassis.

Type 3 - these are failures that are neither predictable nor preventable. In this category are the clutch hub/input shaft spline failures and FD bearing failures (and perhaps some others like the clutch slave cylinder failures). While these are relatively rare they seem to affect a significant percentage of R bikes, perhaps something in the range of 3 to 5% for splines and FDs. This is admittedly a guess since BMW has not been forthcoming with information on these failures.

Type 1 failures are essentially benign. Though they contribute to the overall cost of ownership of a BMW, they are (or should be) expected and are only a matter of degree compared to motorcycles from other manufacturers. You would expect to replace the shocks on any bike at 25,000 – 50,000 miles. For most bikes, your cost of replacement will be under that $1,000 threshold by virtue of the fact they have a traditional front fork (which can be rebuilt at reasonable cost) and will need only rear shock replacement. I think that the BMW telelever/paralever system provides a number of benefits over a more traditional suspension and that the added cost of renewing the suspension parts is a worthwhile trade off for those benefits.

Type 2 failures are more difficult to accept. While they may be preventable, you need to know ahead of time of the likely failure in order to take the appropriate preventative steps. In the case of the wire harness and some other, less costly problems such as the inferior QDs supplied by the factory, BMW should and could have been expected to know and at the very least, inform owners of the potential problem. A service bulletin advising close inspection of the wire harness for chaffing at certain points would have cost the company very little, would have alerted owners to the problem and in virtually all cases, prevented a catastrophic and very costly failure. The QD issue would have been more costly for factory since simple notification would not have been sufficient and BMW would have had to absorb the cost of fitting new parts. The point is that in each of these cases, the factory chose not to address the problem.

Large numbers of Type 3 failures are not acceptable. While the FD and spline problems admittedly impact only a relatively small percentage of bikes, it is a much higher rate than would be expected. It’s likely that most manufacturers have Type 3 failures, however what sets BMW apart is the way that company has chosen to deal with the problems or more correctly, not deal with them. The BMW strategy seems to be to ignore things as long as possible and hope that the problem goes away on its own. This may work but is extremely short-sighted with the long-term cost to BMW likely to be very high in lost customers.

So what does all this mean? While the Roadster is probably the most capable all-around bike out there, handles and brakes extremely well, has a wonderfully responsive, torquey engine and is comfortable and capable, in the end it is still a BMW. This means that it is not as reliable as much of the competition, is hampered by indifferent factory support, is sold and serviced by a declining number of dealers and likely has a significantly higher cost of ownership than many other marques.

Because the Roadster is such a joy to ride, I was able to overlook the factory’s apparent indifference to things like their fuel system problems as well as the high prices charged by my local dealer for very shoddy work and was an unreservedly enthusiastic supporter of BMW. As other problems like those discussed above started surfacing and as the BMW factory’s lack of concern for their customers became more apparent, my enthusiasm has dimmed considerably. I still love riding the Roadster but I no longer have any confidence in it - or for that matter anything produced by BMW - over the long term.

Charlie

[rdsmith3]

Charley - well said

[BoxerSteve]

I've had my '02 beakster (26.3 K on it) for about a year now and have, and continue to have, some annoying problems with it that I shouldn't have had since it is a motorcycle from supposedly "top of the line" BMW. The clock had an annoying buzzing sound at mid-range RPMs which drove me mad until I fixed it with help from suggestions on this forum. It has pretty bad surging right now which has defied all my efforts to fix. Sometimes it doesn't want to downshift; often I have to double clutch it to get it to downshift into third or second. I wonder if this means the clutch slave cylinder is about to fail. After reading this thread and many similar ones about catastrophic failures I wonder if my bike is next for a final drive, clutch slave cylinder, clutch splines stripped, etc. I don't feel confident at all about taking it very far from home!

To be honest I am just about ready to put it up for sale and go back to an airhead. One can have an airhead transmission out in an hour. From what I understand it is a major job, requiring all sorts of special tools and lots of heat from a heatgun, to get the tranny out of an oilhead. Then you throw in the major gouging for parts and labor and I am about ready to throw in the towel on oilheads.

Motorcycling, at least if you ride a BMW, is becoming like downhill skiing: a rich man's sport. I wish I was rich!

Just my .02.

[bikermeow]

So what does all this mean? While the Roadster is probably the most capable all-around bike out there, handles and brakes extremely well, has a wonderfully responsive, torquey engine and is comfortable and capable, in the end it is still a BMW. This means that it is not as reliable as much of the competition, is hampered by indifferent factory support, is sold and serviced by a declining number of dealers and likely has a significantly higher cost of ownership than many other marques.

There was a day and age when this is pure heresy that warranted being burnt at the stake.

The cost of ownership still holds true, although now BMW has bedfellows like Ducati

[jacksgp]

What bike/model do you consider "bulletproof". IMO BMW can no longer claim that title and that is a damn shame!
What changed......Where is the superior German engineering of the past...Why is the R1150r trouble plagued?
I,m closely watching the r1200r forumn and PRAY they are the saviour of the BMW brand! BMW... are you listening!

[Beemeridian]

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[challey]

Beemeridian said:

42,000 + miles. The only repair costs were ones I created. She's been stone reliable.

I wonder if the model year is the key here: It would be interesting to see a breakdown (no pun intended) by type of failure and model year. Beemeridian has put a fair number of miles (42,000) on his bike with no problems. Others, myself included, have had major problems with far less miles. Beemeridian's bike is a 2005, mine is a 2003. All the bikes with wire harness problems like mine that I've come across were 2004 or older. Wonder if that's also the case with the mojority of the other problems.

Maybe BMW finally sorted out the R1150 model's problems by 2005? That would be just in time for the introduction of a new model (R1200) and the start of the cycle all over again . . .

Charlie

[scottybooj]

Ya know, when I posted this topic, a thought in my mind was like..."what if this contributes to an even poorer re-sale value for our bikes???"

I was looking to see if it were just a few major issues, albeit UBER MAJOR issues, that we had to deal with.

I was having a conversation this past weekend with some fellow campers that are also beemer riders. They ride various bikes, mostly airheads, and when I told them how I thought that BMWs newer bikes are becoming costlier and costlier, they said that they are nothing compared to other marques. One mentioned ducati, and while I would've agreed with him earlier, their newer models have been amazing at keeping maintenance down. Ducati knew that was what kept them from selling boatloads of their bikes to the masses.

I think some old-time beemer riders don't realize the complexity or the shear cost of the parts/labor to maintain the newer bikes.

Here's to hoping she gets 'picked' up while in the bronx at a yankee game! Just kidding

[bikermeow]

Wait a minute, perhaps the perceived troubles are due to greater sharing of information, and hence problems get highlighted and discussed. Compared with the total number of R1150R and family being sold, perhaps the numbers are not bad? Just a thought.

I love my Roadster and is unlikely to part with it soon. a 4-year relationship and still going strong

[wncbmw]

I believe bikermeow has stated what I have on other threads. The internet has made even a relatively small number of problems seem larger. As I have stated in previous discussions of this topic, all previous incarnations of BMWs had issues - just different ones. Were they still more reliable than the typical Jap, Italian or British bike or a Harley? Likely. Are the new ones as reliable as the old ones? Probably not, simply because to the complexity of the modern bike, which we of course demand (better brakes, ABS, fuel injection). And the increase in power and performance probably affected reliability. Easier to build a reliable bike when it has 60 HP and drum brakes!

Meanwhile, I personally had the FD bearing go out. Was I disappointed? Yep! But it gave me sufficient warning to replace before the gear set was damaged, so only the bearing needed to be replaced. It cost $458 at the dealer. Probably less than sprocket and chain replacements on a chain-drive bike for the same 50K and 7 years of ownership. And I still love to ride the bike!

This does not mean I don't have sympathy for those who have had major issues but a little perspective is in order. And if anyone finds a perfectly reliable bike with a little character, please let us know. What I know from other forums is there is not a bike out there that does not have some problems.

[rdsmith3]

.... And I still love to ride the bike!

This does not mean I don't have sympathy for those who have had major issues but a little perspective is in order. And if anyone finds a perfectly reliable bike with a little character, please let us know. What I know from other forums is there is not a bike out there that does not have some problems.

I totally agree with you. However, I think the issue is the attitude of BMW, and the sparse dealer network.

I have a GMC Yukon XL (like a Chevy Suburban). The transmission went totally out at 63K miles, leaving my wife stranded on the highway with a toddler in the vehicle. It was out of warranty, but a tranny shouldn't go at that mileage. GM gave me a choice of a refurbished transmission for free, or a brand new one fresh from Detroit for something like $100. I took option B and got the brand new one. They did not deny the problem existed; they did not say they all do that; they did not blame me for the problem (we do not do any towing with it). They agreed it was unusual, and they stood behind the product. Say what you will about GM, but I have been very happy with this vehicle and I will absolutely consider another GM product.

In contrast, BMW tends to deny problems exist; blame the customer; and refuse to work with the customer to help with the cost in these extreme cases.

[challey]

There is certainly an element of truth in what bikermeow and Vann say about the internet magnifying the problems that exist. This is almost certainly occuring and makes problems like FD and spline failures that may only be affecting relatively small numbers of bikes appear to affect a much greater number.

Unfortunately, as rd states, BMW Motorrad has adopted a policy of denying the existence of problems and then implying that said problem was one of the customer's own making. The logical extension of this line of thought is of course what BMW is doing right now: Refusing - except in a few rare cases - to provide any factory assistance to customers experiencing these kinds of premature failures.

If in fact the number of failures is small, it would be very much to BMW Motorrad's benefit to tell us what the actual percentages are. If they are truly small, say under 1%, we would all be then be able to clearly see that the internet is the real culrpit and that we are worrying needlessly. Instead any inquiries on the subject of premature failures, including those made by entities like the BMWON, are ignored. The factory's reluctance to provide such information has the entirely logical effect of making the public believe that the problems we read about on forums like this one, the IBMWR, the BMWMOA, etc must be very serious, effect an unduly large percentage of owners and that BMW is covering up the problem. The lack of factory support and assistance to owners with the kinds of major problems we're talking about here is also taken, again quite logically, as evidence that BMW has serious quality/reliabilty issues.

The bottom line here is that BMW Motorrad controls its own destiny. Will they choose to give consumers accurate information and support or will they be content to leave potential customers (and more importantly, repeat customers) to their own devices? Unfortunately, I think that we already know the answer.

Charlie

[MattPie]

Meanwhile, I can't help but wonder if a Honda ST1300 or an Interceptor, or maybe even an FJR would have these types of engineering issues. Or whether I could expect them to go the distance like I thought my R would when I bought it. I fully expected to be able to go to 200k and never having to replace any big ticket items other then maybe a clutch. And maybe I still will. But I don't know, stay tuned.

I can't put hands on it, but I know I've seen at least one picture of an FJR1300 failed final drive. Not the epidemic that BMW is having, but these things do happen.

[wncbmw]

I cannot disagree with either rdsmith3 or challey on the issue of BMW either not providing support or information on how widespread the problem is or accepting some responsibility for the problems. My own personal problem was, that the BMW dealers I trust are too far away. The closest one did my work but brushed off my inquires as what happened or how common it was. So my experience with the dealer was less than satisfactory.

I also agree that if the company was more forthcoming about the issues and more helpful on the fixes, it would certainly help future business. At least from me! And actual numbers would perhaps give a little indication of how serious the problem is. My bike was long past warranty, so I expected little in compensation but a little information and sympathy would have helped.

[The Velvet Monkey]

I think that the repeated discussion of potential repair breakdowns--evidently based mostly upon online posts--has turned into a fixation on this board and others. I think worrying about problems that might never (and probably statistically won't) occur is needlessly preventing people from enjoying their r1150 bikes, which are really wonderful machines, though, like all machines, are also fallible. And I think these discussions sort of assume that other makes and models don't have similar issues--a assumption I find it very hard to believe.

To put this in perspective, I've had two problems with my R--leaky fuel lines and a the dreaded final drive failure--over the span of nearly 6 years of riding enjoyment. The first was easily repaired under warranty and the last costs me $400.00 as I did most of the work myself (it was easy). I'm confident I've corrected the FD problem (improper shimming) and got to know my bike better. Took me roughly a weekend of enjoyable work and it had the benefit of giving me added confidence in the bike and my ability to repair it.

My home's refrigerator has failed me twice in roughly the same time period causing total repair bills of $700.00. I like the fact that it keeps my food cold, but I get a a$$-ton more fun out of the R.

Ride and enjoy. You're all lucky to own such a great bike.

[wncbmw]

My home's refrigerator has failed me twice in roughly the same time period causing total repair bills of $700.00

Excellent analogy! I am also on my 2nd refrigerator and 2nd microwave since I bought the R! And spent more replacing both than on my FD repair! They sure don't make them like they used to!

[Beemeridian]

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[bikermeow]

I also like to think that BMW was much more reliable than the other makes, then technology, manufacturing processes improved across the board and the other makes caught up, making BMW seem no longer more reliable! Most people in my land baulk at the perceived cost of ownership, and was surprised when i tell them how self-maintenance is possible and can save them.

Twisted thinking or a pinch of wisdom? You decide

Regardless, I do agree that the R is a good bike, I stopped riding mine for a few weeks and when I get back on it, somehow everything falls into place (no pun intended).

Incidentally there's a similar thread at ADV ...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482860