Slave cylinder, spline lube redux

[keithbw]

Greetings all,

Fell off my 02 Roadster in the rain a few years back, let my membership in this board lapse while the bike gathered cobwebs in the driveway. Anyway, decided to get back on the machine a couple months back, so I got some handlebars off eBay, a screen from the ibmwr site, a glass mat battery from BeemerBoneyard, and installed said parts. I then bled the clutch??? and took it out for a spin. Should have known when the fluid I bled from the clutch was black that something was up, and of course after about 45 minutes stop and go, the clutch would only barely disengage with the lever right at the grip. Here is the bike in the driveway.
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... before.jpg

After reading CycleRob's excellent dissertation on the subject,
http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?f ... ve&start=0
and other commentary by others, notably Boxer and boxermania, I decided to have a go at it.

Another fine thread on the subject can be found on the ADVrider site,
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... rive+shaft

This process is time consuming, but if you read, and follow CycleRob's commentary, both pages, several times, it can be done without serious mishap. Here is shot my bike after disassembly,
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... 2after.jpg

While I chose not to take the final drive apart, I did strip the rear frame completely. Certainly makes it lighter and easier to raise. Of course, I also rejoined the site and sent Doug some money. I never would have attempted this, much less have gotten this far without damaging something very expensive, had I not seen it done here.

Note: while the routing of the cables should be noted while you are taking the bike apart, just snip the plastic ties off as you go. As others have posted in this forum, the OEM ties can be hazardous to your Roadster's health anyway, so just cut them off and decide yourself where they should go when you reassemble. Also, it is fairly obvious where the original ties were by the marks on the cables. If you really concerned, take pictures as you go. I did, especially for cables and wires that snake around, and under, the motor and trans, ditto for the little brown(ground?) wires on the motronic mount and left side throttle body.

It may have been risky, but I only went to about 88 C (190 F)when I removed the pivot bolts. They came out without damage. It takes ten minutes or more with a heat gun at full blast to get to that temp. Definately get a laser thermometer.

Got two bolts to make into the guide pins to remove the transmission from,
http://www.boltdepot.com/
Metric hex bolts, standard, Steel grade 8.8, 8mm x 1.25 x 110mm, cost $12.34 shipped, maybe could have gotten them even cheaper at a hardware store, but I wasn't in a hurry, and didn't feel like looking.

Those of you that have done this, please advise. The slave cylinder, while not as messy as CycleRob's was, had leaked a lot of fluid. Should I remove the clutch, to really inspect the discs? Some Dot4 fluid came through to the front of the transmission but I don't think it fouled the clutch plates. Below are links to photos of of the clutch and the front of the transmission case.
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... loseup.jpg
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... tranny.jpg

My wife and uncle-in-law are semi-convinced I will not get it back together again, but I am pretty confident. Generally, any bolt or nut that I could not, or did not, replace where it came out of, or off of, went into a labeled baggie. In fact, I might keep going, remove the rear frame completely. The bike is supported underneath by a jack, the swing arm is strapped to the front wheel and I'm actually really enjoying this. If I can leave the clutch as is, I'll spend the next two weeks happily cleaning and methodically replacing the parts now scattered around the garage. Got the slave from BeemerBoneyard and the cam tensioner upgrade from a the local BMW dealer, other than a few more hose clamps, I think I'm ready to go. Then maybe actually ride the thing, yes, it has less than 12,000 miles.

[CycleRob]

keithbw,
Almost therapeutic, isn't it?
My spline greasing post wasn't intended as a detailed "how-2-do it" instructional. It was just the noteworthy parts of "what I did" that would help those who will do it. Removing/replacing both the throttle cable barrel shaped ends from the throttle shaft pulleys will have anybody's blood pressure elevated.

It is recommended to remove the clutch slave to remove the clutch pushrod before removing the transmission so it will not get bent. I unbolted the battery box and turned it just enough out of the way to lift the frame up high. Complete removal required too many other things be removed. If you go slow and observe it's not a difficult job, but it's certainly not for the inexperienced. Next time (on someone else's OilHead) will be quicker and easier.



Doesn't anybody want to copy my slave chamber drain pipe mod? It was the most satisfying, long awaited, create-on-the-fly modification I've made so far. All junk parts, primo functionality, 10 minute job. Some disassembly is required!!

[iowabeakster]

Nice write-up and pictures kieth, Glad you rejoined the group. This is on my list of things to do...in about 14 months from now. Thanks for sharing this. I've probably read through the clutch removal section of the service manual about 6 times in the last year. And I Read all the threads from those folks who do, here or Adv rider or wherever. (Cyclerob's about 3 or 4 times too) I consider it "mental preparation". It's like sports psychology...I visualize myself swearing, angry, and with bloody knuckles.

Doesn't anybody want to copy my slave chamber drain pipe mod?

Nosirrreeeee Rob! (unless the slave fails me in the next 14 months, then I'll do it for the new one) I'm just gonna keep changing that fluid like a crazed OCD madman.

[boxermania]

keithbw

Save yourself some agravation and while the bike is appart look at all of the major components. The first dissasembly is fun and a learning experience the second is not as much fun......least the third.....

That being said, I would definitely look at the clutch disc, pressure plate and flywheel as a precautinary measurement. Also clean all the components as best you can and then look at the splines closely for an evaluation.

Looks like you are well underway, good luck.

[AndyRR]

Your splines look pretty good, but it's hard to be 100% until they are cleaned. If you take apart the clutch housing, be sure to mark the positions of the front and rear housings relative to eachother. The manual wants them back the way they came and mentions markings to that effect. Any marks that I found were ambiguous at best. Perhaps use a small file to make a notch on each housing.
I would replace a couple transmission seals while you are here. The clutch slave seal for sure and perhaps the input seal. I also replaced the little felt ring on the clutch rod.

Doesn't anybody want to copy my slave chamber drain pipe mod?

I did. Thanks! Of course it hasn't been put to use yet. I am STILL WAITING for the new input shaft and clutch hub. My desire to ride this year is surpassing my desire to have the improved parts. On rainy days like today I am mad because I am missing a perfect opportunity to be out in the shop putting it together. On sunny days....

[sweatmark]

Welcome back to the group.

Like AndyRR says, clean the splined components with degreaser and wire brush and then please show us some pics of the resulting spline tooth profiles. Close-up photos would be much appreciated.

I'm planning to dive into this myself next winter on Mrs. Sweatmark's Roadster.

[Boxer]

Wow! Keith, good work. That's a scary picture there with everything apart!


My first thought was, "Now where is that one little spring clip that came from over here under this gizmo....?"

[keithbw]

Thanks for the input everybody,

Another question. Is there a preferred solvent or cleaner for the splines and/or the clutch parts?

By the way a turbo fabricating outfit called RB Racing has made several different sprung replacement clutches for oil heads, nice looking at all their other stuff too, they claim it's the clutch that is destroying the splines.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmw_clutches.html

if you scroll down on this link you will see they sell a dry lubricant, grease, and an alignment tool.
Is a tool like this necessary any time the clutch is removed?

Going to be a busy weekend, I hope my local dealer gets the little parts(slave gasket, etc.) by Tuesday. They always seem to be out of everything.

[sweatmark]

Thanks for posting the RSR link. I've been an RSR fan since buying Joe Haile's "Motorcycle Turbocharging, Supercharging & Nitrous Oxide" book 10 years ago!

http://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Turboc ... 1884313078

OK, now I'm all in: with the new extended-length transmission input shaft via AndyRR, and an RSR sprung clutch. Perfect complement to my xABS project and final drive re-ratio.

Going to beat this Beemer into submission with new parts to fix old problems.

[CycleRob]

Way to go!!
Makes no sense replacing bad parts with more bad parts.

[Arbreacames]

Keith, I'm really confused: you are doing all of this because of a suspected clutch slave cylinder problem?

[AndyRR]

Another question. Is there a preferred solvent or cleaner for the splines and/or the clutch parts?

Any degreaser, a toothbrush and a rag will do the trick. Just get them clean to check for abnormal wear. Assuming you are replacing the clutch, would you mind setting it aside? If I ever get the replacement splined hub, I could use a couple old ones for rebuilding. As an alternative, I found a local shop that specializes in custom clutch work. I am planning on using them to replace the center hub and optionally, replacing the clutch material. If you would like, I can get you their info and you could ship your clutch to them. They quoted about $50 to replace the material and offered Kevlar as well as material identical to OEM. You could save yourself $300. I wish I could offer you the improved center hub as well, but I don't know when it will be ready. This is all assuming that you don't have any early signs of misalignment on your clutch and input shaft.

The RSR clutch is very interesting, if a little pricey. I would be curious to know the depth of the splined portion. Hopefully, they made it to make full use of the input shaft.

if you scroll down on this link you will see they sell a dry lubricant, grease, and an alignment tool.
Is a tool like this necessary any time the clutch is removed?

I'm sure it would come in handy. If you have an old input shaft like I do, it could be used along with the clutch rod to do the same thing.

they claim it's the clutch that is destroying the splines.

It is, and vice versa. The question is why? I have repeatedly measured (and corrected) the misalignment between the transmission input shaft and the crankshaft and I believe that this is the cause of failures on our normally aspirated bikes. Doubling the horsepower is another issue and the failure that they show is totally different from from the failures that several of us have found. That being said, their clutch would probably last a lot longer than the stock clutch if you have the misalignment and don't correct it.

[keithbw]

Keith, I'm really confused: you are doing all of this because of a suspected clutch slave cylinder problem?

Yes, but now it is a confirmed slave cylinder failure, and because the Dot4 fluid can make it's way through the transmission via the rod that actuates the clutch and subsequently foul said clutch, you have to pull the transmission. In the link below you can see where the fluid has come out onto the front of the transmission, right where it mounts up to the clutch.

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... tranny.jpg

I don't think I fouled the clutch, but since I'm this far, I will pull it off and check to make sure.
I did not have to remove all the parts I did, but I wanted to. I decided to buy an R1150R after seeing a picture of the R259 motor when it first came out. Like CycleRob, I like to see for myself how the thing is put together.
iowabeakster mentioned OCD, that certainly could be a factor also.

CycleRob, as compelling as your drain pipe mod is, I don't think I can put a drill bit to my transmission.

AndYRR, thanks for the offer, if I need a new clutch or have the parts left over, I'll send them your way. Thanks for pointing out the felt ring, according to the MaxBMW fiche site, some rods don't have a groove. I will go out and check mine. I didn't even know it was supposed to come out until CycleRob pointed it out, but since I had the modified bolts as guide pins and the rear frame raised vertical I was able to slide the transmission back without damaging the pushrod.

I never really realized until this job, just how indispensable a tool the rubber mallet is, patience and steady tapping, removes the big parts without knocking over the bike.

[iowabeakster]

Andy RR said,

The RSR clutch is very interesting, if a little pricey. I would be curious to know the depth of the splined portion. Hopefully, they made it to make full use of the input shaft.

+1!

Boy, do I want to know the answer to that question too. If the clutch hub is distended towards the tranny, (maybe made of harder material too!) isn't that the simplest/least expensive solution? (Well, that is assuming no alignment issues. )

Holy cow...I just reread the the RSR wesite, (instead of skimming and looking at pictures). Their clutch hubs (most models) are sprung...now that's clever! That addresses the worst issue of all... the nasty, damaging forces of driveline lash. I like It! I like it a lot!

Even though the RSR clutch is more expensive...it's much less expensive than the longer input shaft option. And, it means avoiding opening up an otherwise reliable gear box.


Thanks Keith!

[CycleRob]

CycleRob, as compelling as your drain pipe mod is, I don't think I can put a drill bit to my transmission.

I know how you feel. I looked it over carefully, realized it was solid Aluminum where the drain hole had to go, then made it happen. First I found the junk piece of a short 1" long small brass pipe, then selected the drill case storage hole it fit snuggly into and used that drill. The drainage trench at 6 O'Clock position came next with a small rattail file. It's necessary because there isn't much clearance between the slave cylinder OD and transmission case slave chamber's ID. For easy axial insertion I chamfered the leading edge of the pipe, smeared tube OD with gasket sealer and tapped it in the hole with a small hammer. The installation force was just below the pipe end's deforming force. It could not have worked out better. The pics:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/ ... ube-26.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/ ... ube-27.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/ ... ube-29.jpg

It looks like this mod can be made without removing the swingarm -and- if you have the long drill. It just won't be as easy.

.

[boxermania]

iowabeakster

Here you can find just about everything you need on spline failure

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13563

[keithbw]

Finally got back out to the garage today and cleaned up the relevant parts

close up of the clutch splines, some wear, not too bad I hope
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... chdisc.jpg

picture of the input shaft, again some noticeable wear, after less than 12,000 miles
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... tshaft.jpg

shot of the pressure plates, hope the discoloration is normal
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... plates.jpg

the output shaft with no cleaning, the seal looks really good
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... tshaft.jpg

and finally the slave cylinder bore, damn it was a pain to clean out, must be tough to do with the tranny still hooked to the motor
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... erbore.jpg

Looks like I might have to replace the seal at the bottom of the bore? Do I just dig it out with a screw driver? Clymer assumes you have the transmission apart to do this.
I think with the noticeable wear already occurring, I will go with the sprung RSR clutch, even though the disc looks uncontaminated and is at 6mm. 4.5mm is the wear limit but I don't know what they start at.
I had hoped to escape this job with mostly my labor, have to wait for the credit card to recycle before I order the clutch. Project will be on hold for a week or so.

[AndyRR]

I think you are doing the right thing with the RSR clutch. Please let us know the depth the the hub when you get it.
If I get a chance, I'll go ahead and replace my clutch slave seal today and let you know how it went. I think you are basically correct about prying it out with a screwdriver.
PM me about your old clutch after you get it all back together.