Leave it in 1st????

[Mollygrubber]

Here's one for Don!

I am finishing up a rider course with Pacific Riding School (Vancouver Canada) and the head instructor (Mark Kruger, look him up - he's a very experienced champion road racer and professional mechanic - everyone but BMW) tells his students to leave their bikes in 1st gear all the time in traffic, for safety reasons.

His reasoning may be solid for most clutches (multi-plate, wet), but how about 'our' bikes? Being that they are single plate dry clutches, it made me wonder about heat dissipation. I tend to think they would overheat!

Any thoughts?

[mogu83]

Mechanically I don't think it's an issue. This has been gone over before on this list and I understand that this is the current procedure recommended in the MSF riders course. You (or I ) could make a good argument either way, hold the clutch in or put the bike in neutral. I'm a leave it in neutral guy most of the time.

[thepeacebullgrunt]

tells his students to leave their bikes in 1st gear all the time in traffic, for safety reasons.

Mollygrubber ? When you write "in traffic" what this mean ? is it like riding 20 to 40 Mph in between cars for 30 mns at freeways jam hours....or is it when stopped at a red light ? or what context is it exactly ?

[Mollygrubber]

I'm talking about waiting at red lights for the most part, to give you the option of a super quick getaway if you have a brain dead cager about to rear-end you.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I should have searched it before posting!

[NeilS]

I assume you're talking about when you're stopped, like while waiting for a red light to change. Safety issues aside, there's no way that holding the clutch disengaged in first gear will overheat or otherwise damage the clutch. If you sit there long enough, the engine could overheat, but that could happen in neutral as well.

As Harry said, the merits of the practice have been discussed elsewhere. My preference is to follow your instructor's (and the MSF's) advice.

[thepeacebullgrunt]

This is how I do : Red light incoming... retro gear progressively up to 1st using as much as possible engine brake while slowly and ambiguously leaning in between lane to avoid rear conflict with a car while waiting for green light.

Once I stopped, I shift from 1st to neutral until Green light re-appear.

Anything wrong with that doctor ?

[taosports]

I would never leave the bike in neutral while waiting for the light to change. There are far too many distracted drivers on the roads today.

At a stop light I position myself 10 yards or so from the car in front of me and off to one side or the other, looking for an escape path should the approaching car behind me appear to not be slowing. It's called defensive driving. I always assume they don't see me.

Staying in neutral can get you killed.

[enderw88]

His reasoning may be solid for most clutches (multi-plate, wet), but how about 'our' bikes? Being that they are single plate dry clutches, it made me wonder about heat dissipation. I tend to think they would overheat!

I'll address this part of your question. The only time a clutch disk needs to dissipate heat is when it is partially engaged, i.e. slipping. The slipping between the clutch(es) and drive surface(s) generates heat. If the clutch is fully released (hand off the lever) then there is no relative motion between the clutch and drive surface, therefore no heat buildup (above the ambient temperature of the engine and transmission. When the clutch is FULLY engaged (lever pulled all the way in) there is very little force between the clutch(es) and drive surface(s) so the heat buildup due to friction is very small, probably small that heat losses to the rest of the system.

Dry clutches get burnt out by "riding" them, letting them slip unnecessarily. There is no long term clutch concerns about sitting with the clutch pulled all the way in with the engine running,other than your hand fatiguing.

As to the rest, I am in the "leave it in gear at all times" camp.

[thepeacebullgrunt]

I see your point but where do you want to escape if you are in front of the line and intersection is busy.

I also stay away from a few feet to the red light stop line by staging further on the right of the left lane if I am in it.

A bit back and right if I am located in the left lane... otherwise I was told back in the days of my 78HondaCB750 to leave my bike in neutral at any red light unless I was looking for premature wear of my gears system.

I suppose the R1200R is a far different technology...which could explain why you seem to advice not to worry about leaving the bike on first gear at red light. And what about the constant mechanic tension you still apply on the clutch lever while always staying immobile in 1st gear ?

[taosports]

I see your point but where do you want to escape if you are in front of the line and intersection is busy.

Anywhere I can...better than just sitting there in neutral while a 4,000 lb SUV slams into the back of me.

I suppose the R1200R is a far different technology...which could explain why you seem to advice not to worry about leaving the bike on first gear at red light. And what about the constant mechanic tension you still apply on the clutch lever while always staying immobile in 1st gear ?

I advise being a defensive rider. I'd rather fix or replace my clutch than fix my broken bones. Besides at 60,000 miles, I have yet to replace my clutch. Of course now I've just jinxed myself.

Seriously though, everyone needs to read this...http://tinyurl.com/cjd5w6

[deilenberger]

I'm talking about waiting at red lights for the most part, to give you the option of a super quick getaway if you have a brain dead cager about to rear-end you.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I should have searched it before posting!

I do a mix..

If I come up on a light, and I stop - I will remain in gear, until 2-3 cars stop behind me. Then I feel comfortable putting it in neutral since I have a buffer behind me now. I'll mostly go to neutral to give my hand a break. If there are no cars behind me - I'm in gear. And stay in gear until the buffer builds up or the light changes and I take off.

I have been hit from behind at a light - but being in gear didn't save me - since it was a SUV driving cell phone talking fool behind me who saw the left turn arrow go green, and his brain said "GO" even though he was going straight, and I was stopped in front of him. Not much I could do - there was still cross traffic, and to tell you the truth, getting hit was a complete suprise to me - I never saw him coming. Classic line - as he got out of the SUV, he said into the phone (STILL at his ear!) "Gotta go - just ran into a motorcycle.."

Did I ever mention how I hate cell phones?

[tobes]

If I'm the first to a light I'll keep the bike in gear until the car behind me stops. When filtering to a light it goes in neutral. I've not had issues with the clutch except for last summer on those 100+ degree days. On the commute home the 101 is jammed, 10 miles of solid lane splitting riding the clutch the whole way. When I got home there was that burnt clutch smell. Even then there were no performance issues.

[BobbyLeBout]

I do the in gear until the buffer appears and then neutral. A few months ago I saw a BMW rider use 4-way flashers when he was approaching a red light. He turned them off when the light turned green. I started using that method and feel safer with the flashers on. One eye is still looking back.
Bobby

[famousperson]

I do the in gear until the buffer appears and then neutral. Bobby

Ditto. My buffer is four cars. I was once at the head-end of a three car rear-ender. By the time the effects reached my car, the momentum was pretty much dissipated, so I've added one car for safety--plus the space buffer in front of me.

[famousperson]

I do the in gear until the buffer appears and then neutral. Bobby

Ditto. My buffer is four cars. I was once at the head-end of a three car rear-ender. By the time the effects reached my car, the momentum was pretty much dissipated, so I've added one car for safety--plus the space buffer in front of me.

[ShinySideUp]

I ride in San Francisco traffic all day long on the job. I'm an in gear kind of rider, except when my hand gets tired and then I wait for the buffer to build up behind me. In SF, the wait is never long!

Recently, while sitting in a left turn lane in the suburbs, I saw a pickup truck approach me from behind and come to a gentle stop. I put the bike in neutral. After about 30 seconds, as I was watching for the light to change in front of me, bam! His attention had drifted somewhere else, his foot had come off the brake pedal, and the automatic transmission had rolled the truck forward with just enough force to cause me to dump the bike. I never saw it coming. Neither did he.

Gotta love those side cases and after-market engine-mounted crashbars! Bike fell on my leg and I was unscathed. The only damage to me was back strain from lifting the bike up. (I was so angry with the driver that I wouldn't let him touch it!)

His classic comment: "I just tapped you!" In the physics of my world, the consequences of a 6000 lb truck impacting a 500 lb bike are not consistent with "tap"!

I imagine that if the bike had been in gear, the fall could have been slightly worse as, perhaps, I would have been shoved forward into my windshield.

[thepeacebullgrunt]

Have a question Guys

At a red light, where do you stop your bike ?

1) In front of the queue and in the middle of the lane.
2) Wherever In between cars but in the middle of the lane.
3) Frankly ln front of the queue but right in between lanes, on the edge of one or the other.
4) You'r not a poser and you never think about those kind of things.

[famousperson]

Have a question Guys

At a red light, where do you stop your bike ?

1) In front of the queue and in the middle of the lane.
2) Wherever In between cars but in the middle of the lane.
3) Frankly ln front of the queue but right in between lanes, on the edge of one or the other.
4) You'r not a poser and you never think about those kind of things.

I understand the question but not all of the answer choices. What do you mean "in the front of the queue." If you are not the first one at the light, how do you get in front? And why would I be a poser if I thought of such things?

I've never given it a second thought, so I guess I'm not a poser, at least not in that respect. If I am first at a light I stop at the stop line and in the middle of the lane. If I am not the first, I stop behind the cars ahead of me, of course, and in the middle of the lane. Why/how would I do otherwise?

Are you refering to something that has to do with lane splitting? I believe that California is the only state where that is allowed (although it may not be the only one where it is tolerated). I am frequently tempted to pass everybody in front of me by driving on the shoulder. But not only is driving on the shoulder verbotten in PA, passing on the right is punished by boiling in oil.

[thepeacebullgrunt]

@Famousperson

A poser is someone that always think how he can stand out in public....so it was the "joke question".

Yes in Los Angeles I split lane all the time at red light catching up sometimes 30 to 80 cars then at green light I can enjoy empty and relatively safe traffic space. I save a lot of time that way...don't have to ride fast in city's just be slim. Same thing in Paris too...we even jump over cars and baby strollers with trail bikes

I didn't realized that in other US states you can't do that.

This is why I always find way to swerve in between cars to reach the first position, once I am there I place my bike ambiguously in between lane that way other cars can't be sure where I will ride when light is green. being right in between lanes somehow also I believe protect me from rear hitting.

Even while riding on freeways I noticed that an ambiguous lane position help keeping in respect drivers behind me. Just swerve a little inside your lane just like you'r happy to ride or just a freak and you'll see the guys behind slowing down.

Even the dog on the back seat will suddenly respect you.

[Dale_K]

Do any of you folks who keep it in 1st ever worry about a slip or a broken cable putting you into the cross traffic?

Er.. I guess you don't worry about a broken cable.