OK, here's a question for all of the tech gurus on this board. (CycleRob, Boxermania, MikeCam, etc...)
When accelerating quickly, I've been practicing pre-loading the shift lever and getting my shifting as smooth as possible w/o compromising power. It's fun to do.
My question...Is it possible to shift up without using the clutch on our bikes? Will it harm the gearbox or clutch assembly?
It feels like it will work, but I'm afraid to really try it for fear that I will harm the bike.
I'm still learning myself, so I'll leave it to the pros to describe the proper technique fully. I'm ready for lesson 2. I've found it helps to preload, as you say, but also to "pretend" you are pulling in the clutch (without really doing so). Seems to help with my timing. I generally avoid it between 1 and 2, and sometimes miss the 5 to 6 shift. Haven't figured out my problem there, something to do with not having it wound out enough, improper preloading, or hell, I don't know. I'll get it figured out eventually, or maybe that one's more difficult (?).
It's especially fun when everything goes real smooth.
-duckdave
'04 R1150R Silver
Little Rock 'n Roll
Double Lifer #580
unsure of your actual question, but to explain proper rev matching.......
Preload gear lever into the direction desired, (if acceleration is on it will not move / change). Together drop the acceleration (smoothly) and pull in the clutch, when the engine revs slow to meet the gearbox speed the gear lever will move (click), clutch out and away you go, the clutch has probably only moved less than an inch towards the bar, but the job is done. Next gear?
Be as smooth as you can, yes it is smoother when you are actually using the revs, I find just doodling around town is harder to keep a boxer ride smooth. The aim is to actually not feel a change but only hear it. If you have a pillion, their head should not be banging into yours. Be smooth, REMEMBER it is the throttle actually making the gear change, and not the clutch. Accelerating away from the lights the front will raise and stay up and not dip every change, then you know you GOT IT! (I know Telelever?)
Finally don't forget that little blip after a downchange, before you release the clutch to bring the engine revs back up to the gearbox speed.
I hope this is what you were checking upon.
- Rock my World
'03 Rockster1150 Orange
- Sydney, Oz
Thanks Rockster but I guess my post wasn't quite clear enough. I have the pre-load shifting working...as I've mentioned, I've been having fun with it. My question was, can it be done without using the clutch and will not using the clutch harm the transmission?
DuckDave seems to be practicing it so I guess my only question now is, does it harm the transmission?
Preloaded, what? All I know is is you shift while hard on the throttle and let up just a bit, slam the shifter down hard and hammer the throttle, you are there.
RIDE TOO PRETEND, PRETEND TOO RIDE.
89 Oldwing, 07 WR250R, 14 KX250F
Let's review. BMW transmissions are kind of klunky. They shift much smoother if you put some preload on the shifter before you pull in the clutch. Actually that's true of any bike.
Yes, you could shift up without the clutch. All you have to do is close the throttle while the shifter is preloaded and it will slip into the next gear. The throttle doesn't have to be off for long, just a split second.
That's how a quickshifter works... it cuts power to the engine when you shift.
You can do it with out the clutch, I like to use the clutch but only pull it in about an inch and do not let up on the throttle much either ....just a bit, and it is smooth.
I have been shifting up without the clutch after 1st to 2nd for a while, i find it is smoother if the revs are higher but still works relatively smoothly at lower revs also. After preloading the shift lever i declerate very slightly and quickly and it shifts up smoothly. The reason i do this is i read somewhere that it saves the clutch (cant fully remember where i read it, on a riding website i think). I haven't yet tried it downshifting, i still use the clutch for that. I dont know how it affexts the gearbox on the rr, it sounds as smooth as withthe clutch. i would be interested to learn if there is the potential for damage.
Would also like to know if the downshifting without clutch is the same technique?
Do it smoothly, the bike will be fine. You just don't want torque applied on the tranny during the shift. That is what the clutch traditionally does. By using a split-second-throttle-twitch you create a brief moment which there is no torque on the drive train. With preload on the shifter, it just slips smoothly into the next gear. It is just different method that has the same effect as a clutch, just faster.
Smooth is the important factor here to ensure no damage.
Do it, it's fun. Just a flick of the wrist.
I was dreaming when I wrote this, forgive me if it goes astray...
Q: "Is it possible to shift up without using the clutch on our bikes?
A: Yes. You can also downshift w/o using the clutch.
Q: Will it harm the gearbox or clutch assembly?
A: That depends on many variables. Some bikes are notorious for having transmission problems and pasts failures . . . . the ZX-11 comes to mind. Not so with the R1150 OilHeads. Some riders and most dragracers will repeatedly do redline, full throttle, clutchless upshifts with a 99% success rate. They will have popping-out-of-gear problems, from bent shift forks and rounded off dogs, way before the bike's loan is paid off. Damage to shift forks and engagement dogs becomes more likely with high RPM + full throttle take-offs.
My last bike, a Suzuki VX-800 had a 5 speed trans that I shifted clutchless up & down for about 39,000 miles before it started popping out of 2nd gear. Part my fault, part Suzuki's semi-strong shift mechanism, part a few hundred thousand shifts. A couple hundred dollars in parts, too many days not riding while it was apart and it was good as new again. The 21 mile backroad trip home from work involved 120 to 160 shifts, depending on lites, passing and traffic. Count your individual shifts on your ride. You'll be surprised !!
Most of us just use small throttle openings shifting around 3,000 rpm and run thru the gears for an easy, faster than most cars take-off. To make the shift w/o the clutch you are doing 2 things at the same instant.
1--Chopping the throttle from ON-OFF-ON so quickly your throttle hand is almost a blurr.
2- At the same very brief instant that the throttle is OFF, you shift up quickly and with enough determination that the shifter will always "top out". The engine should go from accelerate-backoff-accelerate (in the next gear) in about 0.2 second. How much to chop the throttle varies according to how wide it was opened to begin with. On a 1/8th throttle take-off you'll need to lightly tap the idle stops. A half throttle take-off will require only 1/4 throttle instantaneous reduction. A full throttle take-off, about a 1/3rd throttle instantaneous reduction.
It is a skill you learn by starting at the low end and gradually working up. Start at a 1/8th throttle take-off, 0.2 second Chop-N-Shift at 3,000 RPM. Since close ratio 6 speed transmissions are the easiest to shift w/o the clutch, you should have an easy time in the lower 5 gears. The USA bound OilHeads with the overdrive 6th gear have a big ratio jump to 6th gear and that shift requires a higher degree of perfect timing and a slightly slower shifting speed to make it seamless. I always use the clutch . . . . it's easier and causes no harm.
About downshifting w/o the clutch, you do the same thing, but in reverse for the throttle. The throttle goes from OFF-ON-OFF very quickly. The amount of throttle you need to blip varies with the RPM. You need enough of an instantaneous throttle "blip" that the engine accelerates a few hundred RPM to match the RPM it will be doing when ity is in the next lower gear the same instant you are making the determined, full travel downshift. Again, start slow, like at 2,500 RPM and with tiny throttle inputs. Higher RPM's require slightly larger throttle blips.
Recapping, you need to understand the basics of throttle driven engine RPM change that matches the gear you are shifting to. Start with lower RPM's and easy take-offs. Realize engine speed, throttle judgment and coordination all have to be correct for it to be smooth. You need to be smooth so a few thousand (not smooth) sloppy shifts don't test the durability of BMW's robustly engineered Getrag transmission.
He replied that it was cheaper to replace a clutch plate than a gearbox.
Yes, I agree. I kind of spelled it out when I said:
"My last bike, a Suzuki VX-800 had a 5 speed trans that I shifted clutchless up & down for about 39,000 miles before it started popping out of 2nd gear. Part my fault, part Suzuki's semi-strong shift mechanism, part a few hundred thousand shifts. A couple hundred dollars in parts, too many days not riding while it was apart and it was good as new again."
-and- "You need to be smooth so a few thousand (not smooth) sloppy shifts don't test the durability of BMW's robustly engineered Getrag transmission."
They asked how to do it and I told them with subtle warnings. Let me be less subtle now. If you plan on keeping your bike a long time, use the clutch most all of the time, even if you can shift it seamlessly like an automatic transmission. If you always use the clutch to shift, you will prolly never learn the actual costs of gears, shift forks, bearings, seals and the Service Dept labor for the repair job.
I've been upshifting without clutch for 20.000 km. one up it felt verry smooth, about 98% of the shifts, whenn not full shift travel i'd got some times between gears, and than glunck into next.
riding two-up we were banging helmets every shift without clutch and not with clutch, this made me decide to use the clutch again.
only when i want to go to 100km/h within 4 second i won't use the clutch as it costs precious time
2001 r1150r fast blue, sold
2001 r850rtp polizia municipale Milano
2005 r1150r dark silver
Hold it full throttle with preload on the gear, when it hits the rev limiter it will drop right into the next gear. Never let up. Full throttle until you see God, then hard on the brakes!!
I want to add a couple of comments to what my ilustrious colleague CycleRob already contributed.
Most motrcycle gearboxes are equipped with straight gears, I'm not going to go into the reasons, however the act of shifting gears requires that the two gears in question attain close to the same speed before a smooth shift can take place.
If the speed match takes place, the clutch is really unnecessary, unfortunately, that is not easily attained by the typical owner/operator and by design, the gearbox is not intended to be used in that fashion.
The bottom line is that the shift dog has wearable faces and if preloaded unnecesarily will wear prematurely, along with the synchros and subsequently the gears, which I think most of us would like to avoid.
If you develop your shifting technique, clutch, chopping the accelerator, et al you will attain lightning fast shifts (CycleRob!! .02 sec??? how did you time that? he, he, he) with no adverse damage to the tranny.
They say practice makes perfect......
Member #312
06 Suzuki Burgman 650 "state of flux"
79 CBX
I have the pre-load shifting working...as I've mentioned, I've been having fun with it. My question was, can it be done without using the clutch and will not using the clutch harm the transmission?
