Break In Procedure

[deilenberger]

Sorry - I have to disagree.. especially with engines with a Nikasil bore. The Nikasil is harder than the rings that seat in on it. BMW engines with over 200K can be seen to still have the factory cross-hatch pattern intact - since it's done before the Nikasil coating is applied (evaporated on..)

Call me wacky - I tend to believe the engineers at BMW (Bavarian MOTOR Works) who have 90+ years of experience in building engines.. If they say to do it - I do it. I'm looking for a long life from an engine, not a rapid break-in.

And I also have rebuilt a number of engines - including BMW engines (never due to wear on a Nikasil bore..)

[Ric]

Suit yourself....BMW has already rev'ed the stink out of your engine to break-in the rings and bore. Just don't replace anyone's pistons yourself and not perform this initial break-in. And as I said, after this initial break-in, I keep below 5k for 600 miles for the new bearings.

And Nikasil is a trademarked process for depositing nickel/silicone/carbide. Nickel carbide has been used for decades and is used on most of todays motorcycle engines. Chances are, if you've seen cross-hatching in old engines (which you can see on most engines if you look hard enough), the rings were proabably never set correctly with a proper break-in. Which is probably why you see so many BMW's smoking.

[jbim]

Can anyone compare the power of accel of the r1200r to a r1200gs?

I am very interested in this thread because I am thinking of buying an Exec Demo 2007 R1200R. The other day I went to my dealer thinking it may have a Fall clothing sale. Nothing. However, there was nice black R1200R sitting in the showroom. I went for a test ride, not on that unit but another one. I own a 2006 R1200GS. My general impression is that the two bikes are sufficiently different to complement each other. I've farkled my GS for LD touring. I'm thinking the R would be a good urban bike. The power delivery is more immediate on the R. You feel the additional power. The sportier sitting position and lower COG gives you a greater desire to go faster, ride more agressively. The ergos are different. On the GS you sit up while on the R you sit with legs bent with a small forward lean. But still very comfortable. The smaller wheelbase and shorter rake of the R definitely makes it a more nimble bike although the GS is very responsive.

I think I may get one. Anyone has an opinion on buying an Exec Demo from BMW. Presumably, it's been driven only by BMW staff and not ridden by young guns on demo rides.

Thanks

[Skippy]

I bought the demo of the dealer when it just came out. It had 1000km on it and was 2 months old so just enough for the first service witch tey did and enough to don't bother with break in. Don't realy care if people gave the engine a work out I'm with the people thinking that constant speed on highways is doing more damage then the engine then some hard reving every now and then and some top speed blasts(as people tend to do over here ). Mine doesn't use a drop of oil and runs great so I wouldn't worry and of course I still had the 2 year warrenty so what the heck. I also bought a Buell S1 White lightning like that in the past with 4500km on it from demoing ofer 6 months and this also ran great for more then 3 years(witch is better then most Buells from that time). And the Buell was driven quite hard in those three years.

So shortly if you like the bike and it looks like new just go for it.

[Echo]

I bought an Exec demo model also with 660 miles on the clock ( the first service stamp (after set-up stamp) was at 396 miles. I tend to follow the break-in procedures but I've had master BMW techs tell me to ride it like you stole it before the first service.

I tend to be cautious with new bikes so sticking to the recommended break-in procedure isn't a big deal for me.

[BigEasy]

I posed this question in a different thread and have gotten no response and this thread is heading on the same course so here goes again:

One warranty thing I am interested in and have not heard anyone talk about is maintaining rpm's below 4-4500. The reason for my interest stems from exprience with outboard motors. I am aware of instances where ouwners did not follow proper breakin procedures with an outboard and after a failure the manufacturer would not honor the warranty.

If you are not familiar with outboard breakin you are "supposed to" operate uner X rpm for a certain period of time (typically 10 hours) while ensuring that the motor is not operated at a steady state for extended periods. Some manufacurers have gone to the extent of programing the ECU to prevent operation above X rpm until the motor has the requisite 10 hours on it. BTW that is also how the manufacturer determines procdure complicity- the ECU in modern outboards are programmed with a datalogging function so when a tech plugs the motor into the computer to read error codes thay can also observe several other operational functions includeing hours and rpms.

I have not heard of any warranty claims not being honored because breakin operation procedures had not been followed on a bike. I'm just curious if bike manufacturers are as picky as boat motor builders.

[jbim]

I have not heard of any warranty claims not being honored because breakin operation procedures had not been followed on a bike. I'm just curious if bike manufacturers are as picky as boat motor builders.

I would venture to say we rarely hear about warranty claims denied because the engine has been around for so long that the failures are rare. How could they prove that the engine revved at 5000 during the first 600 miles?

[ka5ysy]

I would venture to say we rarely hear about warranty claims denied because the engine has been around for so long that the failures are rare. How could they prove that the engine revved at 5000 during the first 600 miles?

Actually the ECM modules in some engines can log this data easily. A certain production chopper manufacturer has this capability and looks at it if there is an engine problem ! Over the limit = no warranty.

Yes, we do have "Big Brother" watching us now. How many of you have not realized that many new cars and trucks have a black box that can be read after an accident to prove who did what at the time of the accident?

[hipsabad]

Why do all the motorcycle forums exhibit the same less-than-useful traits when dealing with such questions as, "Which break-in procedure is best?' or "Which oil is best?" Some topics, such as which seat is most comfortable, are examples of pure subjectivity, i.e. my butt isn't yours. In the case of break-in procedures, however, these things can be tested and researched under properly controlled conditions but no one on any forum I've seen has done that. They are all just citing different sources which they hold to be authoritative. I haven't come across any actual science here. How does moving through heating and cooling cycles help mesh the rings to wall? Does anyone actually understand why? As far as I can tell from the responses on motorcycle forums the answer is no. Does anyone know if BMW's break-in procedure changed when they moved to Nikasil cylinder walls? Why doesn't BMW or any other manufacturer recommend or even insist on the alternation of heating/cooling cycles when breaking in, if it's so important? The grooves in a honed cylinder wall surface would seem to be there to retain oil for lubrication and cooling purposes but how much Brake Mean Effective Pressure is best for wearing in those grooves? (The NTNOA citation mistakenly calls it Break M.E.P. As in breaking-in?) Does it vary from engine to engine? Are the differences even significant, do they matter? Do high-compression engines, say a 2008 Yamaha R6 (13.1: 1) have different break-in requirements than low-compression engines, say a BMW R80GS (8.3: 1)? If break-in is so important why wouldn't manufacturers simply run them in properly at the factory, which for all we know they might actually do? The scientific method, admitting ignorance, gives results; the indignant attitude, citing authority, is prey to mythical fallacy.

[Ray R]

What he said.
I'm one of the folks that follow what the manual says. But I've known guys that follow the "ride it like ya stole it" mentality, guys that break 'em in easy, and guys that do the redline/heatcycle process. None of them have had any engine failures before they changed bikes. Some with over 100k on them. So my take after all of this is that the rpm should be varied during the first 1000 miles. How you vary it is optional, and really doesn't matter in the long run, as long as you take care of your bike with regular maintenance and oil changes.

The problem, as he states, with asking which break-in method is best using a forum like this, is that no one here has taken a fleet of exactly the same bike and broken them in with each using a different break-in method, then tearing them down to determine wear. Or riding them identically after the varied break-in methods to see which one lasts the longest. So that all said, we have to rely on BMW to tell us what is best since they are likely to have to most data to make that sort of determination.

[deilenberger]

If I had to theorize - I would say BMW is the most likely source to have DATA to base their break-in recommendations on. They DO run the engines on dynos during development. They DO run the engines on extended testing regimes. They DO pay for all the warranty repairs - which would be a great source of info.

Call me goofy - I still will listen to the manufacturer. I can't see them having any reason to NOT tell you how to do it correctly.. Do they share the results of their testing and data gathering with you? I believe they do - it's called the recommended break-in procedure, right in your owners manual.

[Airshaft]

I dont break it in like I stole it, BUT defenetaly dont break it in to the manufacturers recomendations either and agree with motoman and Ric 100%.

All I got to say Is I have realized this long time ago on my own from building motors and making mistakes like going synthetic too early in 88 16valve GTI, It burned oil (1 liter to 2000K) till the day I sold it.
After building a second motor on my XV920 race bike with help from a local tuner I couldn't understand why it was using oil again after such a cerefull break in at which point he sugested that I was doing it all wrong and explained the whole concept of breaking in the rings. Aftr that I'v never had a smoker again.

Since the late 90's I don't bother going inside the motors any more and only do limited external tuning (pipe,filter, dyno remaping) on my bikes.
This and suspension I do to every bike I buy because once you get used to this It becomes very dificult to ride any stock motorcycle.

In last 12 yrs or so have owned and tuned at least 15 new bikes which I broke in from new and than did a stock dyno run every time before doing the mods so I could see the exact gains after all the tuning was complete.
These have been bikes like Gsxr's, Vstroms, DR650's, SV 1k's and 650, Hayabusas etc. Somwhere along the way as we ware comparing figure from other same bikes (In his data base), we realized that my bikes always had higher figures (stock for stock) sometime just margional other considerable. Point to make....most of bikes compared to ware regular Joe's of the street who just wanted to see howmuch power he could brag about. These are the guys that break in the bikes to the manual.
Racers and builders break thair bikes on the dyno and usualy dont bother recording it till all the mods are done and the tuning starts. Few that we found, again, showed a higher outputs.

I also belive breaking in is a bit different for air cooled versus water cooled and Vtwin versus screaming Inline 4'rs. Way to long to get into this and probably a waste of time.

This is my first R1200R which is still in the crate till spring. It will be braking it in my way. Unfortunately I'm 3500 klmiters from my tuner now (Calgary) and wont be back (Toronto) till Sept or Oct next year to do the dyno run and tuning. Hopefuly a power commander will be available by than but if not he does have a way to reprogram the stock ecu, just a bit more complecated.

Having said all this, in general, for average everyday street rider a lot of this realy washes out and unless the bike burns oil nothing ever comes to light any way. For the aware ones like myself that are performance orianted and deeply conected to thair machines plays a big role.

V

[deilenberger]

There will be random snippages..

Since the late 90's I don't bother going inside the motors any more and only do limited external tuning (pipe,filter, dyno remaping) on my bikes.
This and suspension I do to every bike I buy because once you get used to this It becomes very dificult to ride any stock motorcycle.

Curious - have you ever been inside a BMW engine with a Nikasil bore?

Racers and builders break thair bikes on the dyno and usualy dont bother recording it till all the mods are done and the tuning starts. Few that we found, again, showed a higher outputs.

Racers also consider engine rebuilds as part of the normal procedure for racing..

This is my first R1200R which is still in the crate till spring. It will be braking it in my way.

snippages..

Having said all this, in general, for average everyday street rider a lot of this realy washes out and unless the bike burns oil nothing ever comes to light any way. For the aware ones like myself that are performance orianted and deeply conected to thair machines plays a big role.

V

We're all happy you're deeply connected to your machine - unlike most of us here who it's simply a passing fancy (after 30+ years of riding..)

I have an R1200R which (1) Uses NO oil at all (2) Went to synthetic at 6,000 miles (3) Followed the factory break in (4) Is very smooth (5) Has more power than I'm capable of safely using. I realize I must be missing something - but damned if I can figure out what it is. I guess if normal riders like the rest of us really want a dependable, long lasting bike - their needs may be somewhat different from yours - and perhaps their break-in procedure might be a bit different also.

YMMV and most likely will.

[Airshaft]

There will be random snippages..

Since the late 90's I don't bother going inside the motors any more and only do limited external tuning (pipe,filter, dyno remaping) on my bikes.
This and suspension I do to every bike I buy because once you get used to this It becomes very dificult to ride any stock motorcycle.

Curious - have you ever been inside a BMW engine with a Nikasil bore?

Racers and builders break thair bikes on the dyno and usualy dont bother recording it till all the mods are done and the tuning starts. Few that we found, again, showed a higher outputs.

Racers also consider engine rebuilds as part of the normal procedure for racing..

This is my first R1200R which is still in the crate till spring. It will be braking it in my way.

snippages..

Having said all this, in general, for average everyday street rider a lot of this realy washes out and unless the bike burns oil nothing ever comes to light any way. For the aware ones like myself that are performance orianted and deeply conected to thair machines plays a big role.

V

We're all happy you're deeply connected to your machine - unlike most of us here who it's simply a passing fancy (after 30+ years of riding..)

I have an R1200R which (1) Uses NO oil at all (2) Went to synthetic at 6,000 miles (3) Followed the factory break in (4) Is very smooth (5) Has more power than I'm capable of safely using. I realize I must be missing something - but damned if I can figure out what it is. I guess if normal riders like the rest of us really want a dependable, long lasting bike - their needs may be somewhat different from yours - and perhaps their break-in procedure might be a bit different also.

YMMV and most likely will.

Yes 30 yrs for me too, dualsporting, racing/track riding, adventure touring (before there ever was a label for it) and sport riding before there was a term for that too.
Intimate conection with the machine....your reply on that alone shows me that we're not on the same playing feeld (no offence) because if we ware you would not have evan replied to it.

You constantly bring out the reliability isue versus this and racers constantly rebuild thair bikes. This might have been true in older days and now on factory level racing BUT 75% of national and amature racing guys buy the bike, break it in on the dyno, strip it, tune it, track prep it than race the crap out of it for a season or two without ever opening up the motor. If they do open the motor most of the time is for hp gains and not because it broke.

I also must add that this is mostly true with Japanise bikes,as most european brands, including our belove BMW's, are lot less likely to withstand that sort of punishment on such a long term regardless how they are broken in.

Nikasil....Hmmm....harder and slipper surface....wouldnt it be harder to seet the rings properly on somthing with less friction??????

One more thing I'd like to add. No one's saying that anything's wrong with your bike or majority of others broke in by the book credited to whatever cercumstances but (working in the business) theres good amount of people with all sorts of different bikes that are scratching thair heads and saying "I can't undrstand why It's burning oil, I broke it in by the book".

Regardles I think you miss the point in all this and I'm not here to convince you or anybody else jut expressing my experiances and belifs.

[Ray R]

In last 12 yrs or so have owned and tuned at least 15 new bikes which I broke in from new and than did a stock dyno run every time before doing the mods so I could see the exact gains after all the tuning was complete.

So what you've losely proven here is that in your case, if you break in a bike hard, it will have more horsepower initially. How many of these bikes have you owned for a long period of time and put many miles on them? Have you done regular dyno runs year after year or every 10k miles to determine long term affects?

I'm not trying to discount your thoughts and/or opinions. Your methods work well for you, so keep them up. But what I'm trying to point out is that your science does not necessarily prove that your methods are right for everyone. Some may want more life from their bikes and are not necessarily worried about having the most horsepower after initial break-in. Perhaps their bike, after following factory recommended break-in procedures and an additional 50k miles or so, will have more horsepower than one of yours with the same mileage. Just some food for thought.

Lastly, DUDE! Get a spell checker!

[Airshaft]

In last 12 yrs or so have owned and tuned at least 15 new bikes which I broke in from new and than did a stock dyno run every time before doing the mods so I could see the exact gains after all the tuning was complete.

So what you've losely proven here is that in your case, if you break in a bike hard, it will have more horsepower initially. How many of these bikes have you owned for a long period of time and put many miles on them? Have you done regular dyno runs year after year or every 10k miles to determine long term affects?

I'm not trying to discount your thoughts and/or opinions. Your methods work well for you, so keep them up. But what I'm trying to point out is that your science does not necessarily prove that your methods are right for everyone. Some may want more life from their bikes and are not necessarily worried about having the most horsepower after initial break-in. Perhaps their bike, after following factory recommended break-in procedures and an additional 50k miles or so, will have more horsepower than one of yours with the same mileage. Just some food for thought.

Lastly, DUDE! Get a spell checker!

A - I'v had as many as 60k on some of the bikes including track days.

B - If a motor burns oil you honestly think it will last as long as one that doesn't.

C - you didn't seem to have a problem reading it.

[Ray R]

[A - I'v had as many as 60k on some of the bikes including track days.

B - If a motor burns oil you honestly think it will last as long as one that doesn't.

C - you didn't seem to have a problem reading it.

Which bikes did you break-in new that you got 60k on? Impressive mileage since you've had 15 bikes in 12 years. Nice. I wish I had the time and weather to ride that much. Did you have a chance to dyno those bikes on a regular basis to determine any long term affects of your break-in process on HP?

I wasn't aware that all motors broken in by manufacturer specs burned oil. I guess I've been among the lucky few that have followed the procedures in the manuals and not been stuck with an oil-burner.

[Airshaft]

[A - I'v had as many as 60k on some of the bikes including track days.

B - If a motor burns oil you honestly think it will last as long as one that doesn't.

C - you didn't seem to have a problem reading it.

Which bikes did you break-in new that you got 60k on? Impressive mileage since you've had 15 bikes in 12 years. Nice. I wish I had the time and weather to ride that much. Did you have a chance to dyno those bikes on a regular basis to determine any long term affects of your break-in process on HP?

I wasn't aware that all motors broken in by manufacturer specs burned oil. I guess I've been among the lucky few that have followed the procedures in the manuals and not been stuck with an oil-burner.

A -- 850 TDM, Vstrom 1000, TLS and thats 60k klmtrs.

What can I say, It's my life I gues. Since the mid 80's have always had at least 3 bikes at the time and at one point over a dozen. When I moved in July I sold all my bikes and have been without one for the first time since 1978 and I feel like a lost soul. Since I bought the R1200R last month I decided to leave it in the crate till April as I dont have a decent place to keep it during the winter. Only other BMW's I had was k75s and r100 for a brief time.

If you take a closer look you'll see that I never said that all bikes broken in by the book burn oil, as a mater of fact majority don't but youd be surprised of howmany do.