Offroad/Dirt Riding

[nylife]

Can someone give me a brief, where to start, kind of of quick start for dummies. i been riding for a while, but on road only, thinking of trying to go offroad, as a way to continue riding, but avoiding the risk of being hit by a car, due to my friend recently being killed, his and my family are up in arms with me riding, but i am not ready or willing to give up riding, so am thinking maybe be if i go offroad, with no cars.

any suggestions in terms of which bike BMW f650gs, Kawi, Suzuki? i am just thinking out loud
thanks

[NoRRmad]

Hm. If your family does some research, they'll find that 80% of motorcycle fatalities occur off-road. Maybe it'd make a point with them if you took a road-riders safety course.

[Lost Rider]

Hm. If your family does some research, they'll find that 80% of motorcycle fatalities occur off-road. Maybe it'd make a point with them if you took a road-riders safety course.

Where did you get that info? I don't believe it to be accurate.

Sounds something like this rumor:
http://www.motorcycleforum.com/showthread.php?t=106345


Or unsupported conflicting statements by a lawyer's firm looking to bottom feed?

http://www.bike-law.com/CM/Resources/Mo ... istics.asp



How can off road be 80% of deaths with actual statistics like this?

"Deadly Motorcycle Crash Statistics
During 2007, 50% of all fatal motorcycle crashes involved collisions with another type of motor vehicle in transport. Of these two-vehicle crashes, 78% of motorcycles involved were struck from the front. Only 5% were struck from the rear.

In 25% of fatal motorcycle crashes, the motorcyclists crashed into a fixed object like a telephone pole or a concrete abutment.
Speeding was a factor in 36% of fatal motorcycle crashes during 2007. This compares with 24% for passenger cars, 19% for light trucks and 8% for large trucks."

http://www.examiner.com/article/deadly- ... statistics






Now onto nylife's original question.

I think I understand your tough position, and greatly respect your will to find a way to keep riding. Motorcycling is dangerous, but not feeling alive is equally dangerous.....

While I do understand that off tarmac riding has it's own dangers, it basically eliminates the whole cager trying to kill you aspect. NO traffic, just you, your bike and YOU! You are far more in control of your own destiny.
Riding hard on the dirt will inevitably lead to crashing, just like riding hard on the street. Casual trail riding - lots of fun and much less of a chance of a serious accident. My opinion is off road riders wear far more protective gear than the street and when get-off happen that don't involve high speeds or running INTO something or being hit by a 4000 pound piece of metal you stand a much better chance of not being injured or killed.
Hard armor pressure suits, and very stiff boots at a minimum. I can't count how many times I've went down on dirt, got up, shook off the dust, picked the bike up and carried on due to my hard armor and Sidi Crossfire boots, but I like to push myself hard when I ride and go places that are difficult to ride sometimes.

Here's a pretty good example of a crash of mine at 55mph in death valley when the front wheel locked up, moral of the story is to start with getting the best safety gear for exploring off road as possible, especially as a n00b dirt rider.

http://www.lostrider.com/lost/Crash.html

Of course best gear is subjective, I would research ADVrider.com for what works for you. I use a Thor Impact Rig SE, Sidi Crossfire boots and BMW city pants. A Leatt neck brace is also a wise investment and once you're all geared up it will be easy to see for your loved one's to see that safety is most important to you.

Now that we have safety gear out of the way, the first place to start I'll share my opinions about bikes.

As well documented through my posts over the years I went from R1150R to R1200R, then started exploring gravel roads and found great enjoyment and freedom away from traffic/RV's and all the Harley Clones putting along at slow speeds on the popular routes. I found enjoyment riding at low speeds off the beaten path, getting OUT of the big city and not seeing the world go by at highways speeds.
I then explored more gravel roads, then into the mountains and rougher trails, 50,000 miles later on the 12R I bought GS to take me places I couldn't/shouldn't go on the R. A close call almost sliding off a muddy cliff on the R is what made me ride to the nearest dealer and buy my GS on the spot, while mid-trip far from home....

My girlfriend Nancy started riding on a TW200, quickly outgrew it, we bought a F800R for her, then a G650GS. I've watched her grow as a rider both on and off road, especially after we rode the Continental Divide Trail and many trips to Death Valley. The 800R is gone because Nancy enjoys riding off the beaten path more than just on the street. No cars to worry about, and seldom at high speeds.
I'm just mentioning Nancy because it has helped shape my opinion about your question for starting to get off road. I've also watched her crash many times on dirt and get up to keep riding with her good safety gear.









BMW has a very potent marketing machine to sell the GS line, obviously since they are the best selling bikes they make. Don't buy into it unless you KNOW what you want to do with a GS.
Promise of round the world rides that will never happen, the illusion that these bike can go anywhere and do anything....
While in the right hands a GS can take you places you wouldn't go on a street bike, all of them from the single 650 to the 1200GS are well over 400 pounds and pushed mid 500 range for a fully farkled 1200GSA.
My 800GS in it's last current state weight 485 pounds, without a full tank or any camping gear. I don't have the GS anymore.

500 pounds!
That's all fine and dandy for gravel roads.... but the 1200R can do that.
It's a lot to manage and riding them in anything rougher than a grated gravel road, it's more about momentum and direction than any kind of finesse.
Add to that all BMW's come with crappy shocks that are far from confidence inspiring when it gets rough, not keeping the bike as stable as possible on rough terrain, and then add the most common 90/10 - street/dirt dual sport tires on a heavy bike for a new rider and it's pretty overwhelming. I've watched Nancy struggle to keep her heavy big balanced....
Forget about it when you hit some deep gravel on a 450 pounds bike with a little 19" front wheel.... like in the photo above, down you go unless you're going fast enough to skim over the top, faster than most of us want to go off road on a big bike.

I understand many people learn to ride dirt on a GS, I did, Nancy did, etc. My GS has taken me so many cool places, and was as good as it gets for such a big bike because of many thousands of dollars in suspension and performance upgrades. Shocks, forks, wheels, dampers, gearing, etc. I could have easily bought a nice dirt bike for what I dropped into the GS to make it batter on dirt. No amount of money spent can take away a couple hundred pounds.

BUT! I recently bought a Husaberg FE570S street legal dirt bike. It weights 250 pounds wet and has 60HP with great suspension. Our world has changed.
It's a whole different story off road, I can CONTROL the bike instead of "guiding" a 500 pound bike with knobby tires. Freedom. Nancy rides it too and can actually control it, not just using it's mass and momentum to plow through things.
Granted it doesn't have the cargo capacity or comfort of the GS, need a lot more maintenance but in it's intended environment it's a blast ride with less stress trying to control a big bike. Much easier to pick up too.
I guess my point is if you want to get your feet wet with riding dirt, already having a 12R that is more than capable of riding gravel roads ( air down the tires), I would start with something more lightweight.



I don't know how much money plays a factor in your bike choice, but if I had to recommend one bike for you I'd say get a Yamaha WR250R.
Buy a used one with all the farkles if possible, they are bulletproof proven motors. If you don't like dirt riding you shouldn't lose much if any money.
the WR is fuel injected (who wants to come from a BMW and mess with carbs?...), electric start, with a wide space gear ratio tranny so it can ride all day at highway speeds to get you to the trails without blowing up the motor and still creep along at very low speeds in more technical riding, it also has service intervals like a road bike (most dirt bike's carry little oil and need frequent oil changes, the higher performance the more the maintenance). The WR's motor is more than enough to get you into and out of trouble. You'll be surprised how fun it is to ride a light DS bike on the tarmac too....
Guys have traveled all over camping off their WR's.
Take a look at this guys site:

http://www.bigdogadventures.com/



The main thing you'd want to do is have the suspension sprung and valved for your weight, not too costly and very important.

Now, onto riding whatever bike you get....

I hear this DVD is very good.
http://dualsportriding.com/

If you are serious about wanting to learn to ride dirt, the Jimmy Lewis Off Road course is second to none.... Rawhyde basically copy's Jimmy's class... he's the real deal world champion desert racer turned teacher...

http://jimmylewisoffroad.com/



The biggest piece of advice I can give is to spend some time on http://www.ADVrider.com
All your questions can be answered about all things dual sport, just filter out the BS like usual with any forum.
You can easily find local people/clubs to ride dirt with on ADV, look in the Regional Forums.

Good luck, I hope this helps you find the balance you're looking for, and if you get a DS bike you want to put some decals on I'll be happy to send you out some of these that says it all, for me.


-Finn





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[NoRRmad]

Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) was created in the United States by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to provide an overall measure of highway safety, to help suggest solutions, and to help provide an objective basis to evaluate the effectiveness of motor vehicle safety standards and highway safety programs.[1]

FARS contains data on a census of fatal traffic crashes within the 50 States, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico. To be included in FARS, a crash must involve a motor vehicle travelling on a trafficway customarily open to the public and result in the death of a person (occupant of a vehicle or a non-occupant) within 30 days of the crash. FARS has been operational since 1975 and has collected information on over 989,451 motor vehicle fatalities and collects information on over 100 different coded data elements that characterizes the crash, the vehicle, and the people involved.

Overall, a motorcycle rider was about 16 times more likely to die in a crash and about 3 times more likely to be injured than is a car driver, per mile traveled, in 1998. The FARS (Fatality Analysis Reporting System) attempted to find reasons for these fatalities. They sifted through many motorcycle safety statistics and found that:

Less than 50% of motorcyclists killed from their injuries were wearing a helmet. A leading cause of death in motorcycle crashes is head injury. The NHTSA estimates that the lives of 500 bikers were saved by helmets, but 307 more could have been saved. Helmets reduce the chance of a fatality by 29% in a crash, by their estimates.
Motorcyclist fatalities are increasingly frequent on rural roads.
Around 31% of those killed in motorcycle accidents were intoxicated.
Around 50% of motorcycle fatalities occur when trying to negotiate a curve.
Over 80% of fatalities occur “off-road.”

[Lost Rider]

Less than 50% of motorcyclists killed from their injuries were wearing a helmet. A leading cause of death in motorcycle crashes is head injury. The NHTSA estimates that the lives of 500 bikers were saved by helmets, but 307 more could have been saved. Helmets reduce the chance of a fatality by 29% in a crash, by their estimates.
Motorcyclist fatalities are increasingly frequent on rural roads.
Around 31% of those killed in motorcycle accidents were intoxicated.
Around 50% of motorcycle fatalities occur when trying to negotiate a curve.
Over 80% of fatalities occur “off-road.”

[/quote]



Again, taken off of a lawyers website in a "summary"

That's a lot of percentages that don't add up if you're trying to prove that it's more dangerous to ride dirt than street from how I see it.

What's the definition of "off-road"?

that the rider was riding trails?

or that the bike went off the road leading to a death?


Some more text quoted of the internet, hard to believe that 80% of all deaths come from a group of types of bike so small like you mistakenly think. Again from a lawyers website so it should be taken for what it is.

"By Type of Motorcycle:
According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), riders of “supersports” motorcycles have driver death rates per 10,000 registered vehicles nearly four times higher than for drivers of other types of motorcycles.
Supersports have more horsepower than conventional motorcycles and can reach speeds of up to 190 mph. They are built on racing platforms and are modified for street use.
The bikes are popular with riders under the age of 30.
The bikes are light-weight and aerodynamically styled.
In 2005, these bikes registered 22.5 driver deaths per 10,000 registered vehicles compared with 10.7 deaths for other sport models (related to supersports but do not have the acceleration, stability and handling of supersports).
Standards and cruisers and touring bikes, with upright handlebars, have rates of 5.7 and 6.5 per 10,000 vehicles.
In 2005, supersports accounted for 9% of registrations, and standards and cruisers made up 51% of registrations.
Among fatally injured drivers,
the IIHS says that drivers of supersports were the youngest—with an average age of 27;
touring motorcycle drivers were the oldest, 51 years old;
and fatally injured drivers of other sports models were 34, on average;
standard and cruiser drivers were 44 years old.
Speeding and driver error were bigger factors in supersport and sport fatal crashes.
Speed was cited in 57% of supersport riders’ fatal crashes in 2005 and in 46% for sport model riders.
Speed was a factor in 27% of fatal crashes of riders of cruisers and standards, and for 22% of riders of touring models."


http://www.1800motorcycle.net/accident-statistics.aspx





Look hard enough and you'll find the correct answer you're looking for, your claim that 80% of bike related deaths is just plain wrong, even if it's posted on the internet, it just doesn't add up by a long shot.

It's a moot point to try and argue lawyer statistics, and not what nylife asked for anyways looking for help wanting to expand his riding adventures.

[NoRRmad]

...Well, it's the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. But enough. There's a situation; guy's friend got killed on a bike, apparently by a cager, and this guy's family is now bearing down on getting this guy off his bike. He's thinking that maybe going off-road is safer, might be seen as safe enough to get the family off his back, and still let him do some biking. Well, OK, we can do a thread on the best off-road bikes. But if his family sees the NHTSA report, it's not going to help. I got no axe to grind about off-road, but if it's question of safety, there are authorities that say it's not as safe as on-road -- and that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[Faylo]

Off road riding is a great way to improve one's skill. Typically you don't ride a 1200cc bike off road and with it being a smaller bike, you have less weight and power to handle. You'll go and experience more radical places and conditions on a smaller bike and also learn how it reacts when things go wrong. i.e. rear wheel breaking loose, front wheel breaking loose, both wheels breaking loose. These kind of events translate well to the street on heavier bikes. You develop a "second nature" understanding of how a bike responds and how to compensate when on the street.

I've always believed it was best for folks to start out on smaller bikes, on dirt, and learn how to ride them before moving up, versus, starting out on the larger bikes and just learning how to operate them. People starting out on larger bikes, never seem to really learn how to "ride" and are limited on their control and reactions in rough situations. This seems to be most prevalent in the Harley crowd where a person that has always wanted to ride an HD goes out and buys a hog. And then learns to ride. I once taught a guy to ride who had never ridden and just bought a Heritage Special because he liked it. Last I heard, he dropped it a couple of times but had over 30,000 miles on it years later. I consider him lucky.

On dirt, you'll crash more. But you'll also gain experience you don't want to earn on the street.
Hope this helps!
-Jim

[Lost Rider]

...Well, it's the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. But if his family sees the NHTSA report, it's not going to help. I got no axe to grind about off-road, but if it's question of safety, there are authorities that say it's not as safe as on-road -- and that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

But you quote is NOT from, the NHTSA, it's from a summary taken from many sources, then independantly written by a lawyer looking to drum up business, you keep arguing thinking you're helping the guy when in fact you're not. Show me the NHTSA report, not a quote from a lawyers website. It's not even a logical statement.

Better yet why don't you contribute in a way that's actually on topic.

[sjbmw]

Back to the original question:

At Morton's Spring Fling, the guest speaker was Bruce Conger, who works at the BMW Performance center in SC.
He ran his first Dakar and had some great stories about that race.

But, BMW Mottorad has a dirt riding school, and one can learn crashing "not their own" bikes. (Bruce is one of the instructors.)

The BMW Performance Center has classes on road/dirt or a combination of the 2.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/ ... cycle.aspx

The prices include everything including the GS of your choice.
A nice try before you buy class for someone thinking about off road riding.

[nylife]

I thank you all for your input, i do understand the risks involved, and they will always be there no matter what and how i ride.
With dirt you eliminate the risks of car hitting you, i dont care what statistics say, there is no car out there that will hit you, yes i can take a dive myself, but at least there is no 80 year old drive that did not see you and plowed into you head on.
in terms of gear, i wear full gear on the street currently and would do the same off-road if i get to it.

[Lost Rider]

Then again, you can have fun on a big GS.