Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Inspired by CycleRob, this section is devoted to all flavors of the F800.

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CycleRob
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Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by CycleRob »

Aug 26---29 I'm at the East Coast F800riders Rally, staying at the Old Clark Inn in Marlinton. That makes me and roomie FredRydr (F800GS) about 33 miles away from the main F800 group that's staying in Cass, WV in a much dumpier, very spartan, musty place. We went there Friday AM with the plan to group ride with some of those guys, but after politely asking the 20 something riders milling around, only 2 joined us!! Fred, always calm about everything, in frustration said trying to get anything out of them was like herding cats! We rode into the green wilderness at a pretty good pace thru the hundreds of corners, a continual gap to the 3rd and 4th place riders. At some point hours later they split off, leaving us alone. Thanks!!

Off we go. Eventually we stop for gas and I fill it up to the cap on the side stand. We haul ass. It runs great until I hit a sharp bump about 4+ miles from the fuel stop. Immediately after I hit the bump the engine shuts off like I hit the kill switch. Bwaaah . . . . bwaaah it says as I work the throttle on/off twice while dead engine deceleration slows me down in 6th. Ut oh! THIS AIN'T GOOD! It finally catches half heartedly while running rough and not taking the throttle. Part throttle running is terrible. The normal road speed keeps the engine turning when it's not running or wants to stall. Then it gradually smooths out and continually improves over the next 20 minutes or so. I immediately thought the EWS, fuel pump or pump controller just took a dump. Fred thought the EWS plug was dislodged after not being fully connected. That sounded right and I gave it a squeeze in the general area . . . . doing absolutely nothing. There is no plug visible from the rider's seat. :lol: It continued to be temperamental by hesitating/stumbling a little, right at the on/off throttle transition. My anger toward BMW is growing. This is a serious malfunction that could leave me stranded. After about another 20+ minutes it gradually returned to normal for the rest of the day.

Do you have a diagnostic clue yet? At the time, I did not, except for those notorious German electronics I mentioned. Day 2, almost the same scenario, gas up really full on the sidestand and go several miles . . . . except instead of a bump triggering it, it was after passing an 18 wheeler WOT for 2 gears to 8 thousand or so. On the slow down after the pass I upshift to 6th, then get on the gas again only to find there is a dead engine, again!!! Dead as in key off dead! Same scenario. Rough running, gradually gets better, then it runs normal. Huh??

On the long ride after it recovers, I mentally put all the facts together and come up with 2 solutions. Loose battery terminal -or- liquid fuel in the charcoal canister. Because I added lock washers with longer SS battery bolts, it couldn't be a loose battery terminal. What a coincidence it would have to be for an electrical component failure to occur about the same distance after overfilling the fuel tank. Duh! That facts are all there. It all fit!! The gradual improvement . . . . all the way to running flawless again, does NOT happen with failing electronics or poor connections. Even the burbling sound the exhaust made as it was recovering sounded like too much fuel. Confusing me was the way it shut off . . . both cylinders simultaneously go dead, and in a few seconds, come back in together.

You can't imagine how sickening it was to have my brand new bike cutting out right underneath me!!!! I'm over it now and take back all the belligerent animosity and bad thoughts I had toward the BMW factory. It was all my fault, my bad. I did side-stand overfill the fuel tank up to the cap. It was so full the cap center portion actually just touched the fuel when I closed it. I mistakenly thought the visually much higher vent location forward of the tail lite was so high there would be no negatives to overfilling the tank. Couldn't possibly happen. The engine heat does cause significant volume expansion of "just-from-the-ground" cold gasoline. It very likely contributed to the gasoline getting forced/splashed into the vapor vent hose, then the charcoal canister, especially with the bike accelerating, going uphill. There was a lot of that!

I was a little cloudy as to why the engine shut off both cylinders simultaneously until I realized there is only one O2 sensor and it told the BMS-K computer: "Dude . . . it's way too rich!!" That's when it stopped all fuel injection as the fuel drops were fed from the fuel soaked charcoal canister into the intake manifold. It was way too much fuel for normal running or power producing combustion. The liquid fuel was confusing/corrupting the correct EFI metering. Now I know, it's not BMW's fault. Problem solved. My bad. No more side stand over-filling the tank up to the cap to expand the fuel range. I promise.

Yes, the excess fuel potentially could have fouled the sparkplugs -but- we were repeatedly riding a brisk pace up mile plus long 8% and 9% grades without a hint of misfiring. After the fuel was gradually purged from the canister over a few hours runtime, it ran perfect!

FredRydr and I rode 270.3 miles (435km) Friday, with no particular destination other than "North & East" and a desire to travel on the very entertaining roads in the West Virginia mountains. Saturday's ride, again with Fred, was 292.8 miles (471.2km) of some of the best M/C roads in the USA. About 50 of those miles was in the drizzling rain. CURVES!! Lots of them, on very smooth, well paved asphalt roads. Add in the elevation changes common to mountain roads and you have M/C heaven. Most everyone drives pretty fast there, even SUV's & pickup trucks. That's strange, considering the frequency of sharp curves and who is driving them. Also, the police force is for all intents . . . . . absent. That bike of mine sure can corner fast! What a blast it was!! We didn't crash, run off the road or get arrested. Yeee-Haa!! :smt026

After all that burned on dirty wheel spray, the entire exhaust system on my formerly showroom condition brand new bike looks like it has suffered 8 years of neglect. My pointing out how messy it was prompted the wise response; "It's a tool, not a jewel". Whatever.

I just spent the better part of (today) foul weather Tuesday cleaning the entire bike. It required removal of the lower body panels, windshield, seat and muffler. The entire exhaust had to be cleaned with steel wool and soap, then I washed-n-waxed all the painted parts of the bike and some of the engine. It looks like showroom condition again!

BTW, attending a web competitor's F800 bash wasn't a defection. I was just curious and mostly wanted to ride the mountain roads for 2.5 days again. For the most part, I was disappointed there wasn't a Vann, Pat, DJ, Al, Phil, Wayne or Dave among the group. Except for the outgoing Windy on his Randy Mamola BoxerCup, it seemed quite empty.

.
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by OU812 »

Glad you did not get run over after passing the semi and bike puking. Lesson learned Rob?
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by takemeaway »

HI CycleRob,

Thanks for the report. Great troubleshooting on the issue. But I know how gut-wrenching it is to have the bike quit right underneath you. But really glad to hear you (and the bike) weren't hurt because of it. My previous bike [non-BMW] had done that. Luckily it was the battery in that instance.

Glad you had some great riding.
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by sweatmark »

I did side-stand overfill the fuel tank up to the cap. It was so full the cap center portion actually just touched the fuel when I closed it.
I tried to fill up our F800S in that same way, but soon gave up the attempt as auto-stop filler nozzle required too much fiddling. The F800's automotive-style angled gas filler setup is an elegant solution to the motorcycle fueling challenge: for those that have spent years holding the gas nozzle awkwardly above a conventional centerline gas tank hole, it's a joy to insert the nozzle into F800, click the nozzle's trigger catch, and walk away until the nozzle shuts itself off (without overfilling!)... just like your car.

Thanks for the heads up Rob.
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by CycleRob »

The auto shut-off doesn't work if you pull the nozzle almost all the way out, as in seeing the end of it.

I knew the consequences of overfilling the 1150R, but there seemed to be a huge airspace between the filler cap and the high up vent connection at the top-rear of the tank by the tail lite. Repeatedly accelerating up very steep hills + hyper overfilling compromised that normally safe cushion.

Another surprise to me was just how fast an F800GS can corner with an experienced and daring rider. Looking at that big square blocked rear tire, you wouldn't believe it could corner at those lean angles and speed. If I was self restrained at 97%, then FredRyder must have gone to 105%, because we were equal.

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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by jb44 »

Rob,

I remember you are not in favor of removing the canister on the 1150R, but do you think a canisterectomy would cure the F800 over-filling stall problem?

jb
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by sweatmark »

Overfill on the F800 bikes is a bit different, as the filler is slanted on RHS of bike to allow fuel filling while on sidestand.
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by jb44 »

sweatmark wrote:Overfill on the F800 bikes is a bit different, as the filler is slanted on RHS of bike to allow fuel filling while on sidestand.
I understand the filling is different on the F800's (I had a F650GS single which fills the same way).

The question is, Will removing the canister stop the stalling if inadvertently over-filling the tank?

jb
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by CycleRob »

"The question is, Will removing the canister stop the stalling if inadvertently over-filling the tank?
"


Yes, it will, because the vapor recovery system will be removed. You'll need to add a simple/primitive air filter to the canister-to-ICM (idle control motor) line because it supplies the bypass air needed by the idle control motor. BMW brilliantly uses the charcoal canister for a slightly fuel rich, clean, bypass air source to raise and control the idle speed. Consider that the charcoal canister "removal" will certainly eliminate what was an efficient, clean intake air source for the ICM -and- an destroy an integral part of the solenoid controlled fuel tank vent system, likely allowing dirt/rain water entry. I really appreciate the valuable odor prevention function the charcoal canister provides in a totally symbiotic manner and would therefore never remove it! Knowing I would be riding deep into the vast empty wilderness where dingy small gas stations are the only fuel source, the extreme degree to which I overfilled the tank 2 times in a row will not be necessary again. That remote area old gas only condition was a rarity. A better solution to overfilling the fuel tank the next time would be to carry a small 1 gallon plastic fuel can -or- a 1 Quart/Liter oil bottle (or 2) of gas in your side or trunk bag. I currently mix-n-store small, always fresh batches of chainsaw gas in a durable, 1 Qt Mobil-1 oil bottle and it never-ever leaks. It inflates out of shape like there's 10 psi pressure inside it, but it doesn't leak. It also survives really rough handling in transport or being knocked/bumped/kicked around at the job site.

Recapping . . . . there's a difference between "inadvertently" overfilling it and deliberately hyper overfilling it with the nozzle withdrawn. That's apparently why I was the first and so far only one to encounter this cut out problem. That extra .1 gallon sure did cause a lot of aggravation. At least we all know now to resist the temptation to really really over do it.

.
Last edited by CycleRob on Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by jb44 »

Rob,

Thanks for the response and explantion.

jb
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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by CycleRob »

Just checking in to confirm that all is well after those 2 engine cut off episodes. It has continued to run perfectly since.
With just over 3,300 miles (5,311 km) it now has less right twistgrip vibration at 73--85 MPH (117--137 kph). Speeds below that are near electric motor smooth. I got the RaceTech Gold Valves from my shop in the mail Friday, but will have to wait for the local Honda dealer to order 2L of 20W Silkolene full synthetic fork oil on Tuesday. Because of it's super slipperiness, reasonable extra cost and the years fork oil stays in place, it was only what we used on inverted fork reassemblies. Calling the Gainesville GA area shops, NO ONE had full synthetic fork oil!! Most did not even have the recommended 20W Bel-Ray conventional oil. #-o There will be a full detailed photo outline of this half day medium-easy installation process after it's completed in a few weeks. Because I'm retired, I can afford to wait for no yard chores and bad weather to take it apart!

Back on topic . . . After coaching an OilHead valve adjustment and rechecking it's TB synch yesterday in my garage, I appreciate the modern sophistication of my new F800 even more. I was reminded of the 50R's serious curb weight and sometimes temperamental near warm engine idle. That evening we picked up a large pizza some 6 miles away. I let the bike idle, steady as a rock, the 2 minutes it took for her to go in and come out with our large pepperoni pizza. I could have strapped it on the luggage rack, but she said she'd hold it and it was OK. Time was ticking away. Ann had the pie in one hand and the other on my right shoulder. From the first divided highway sharp U-Turn to every take off and gear shift, not even that shoulder hold was necessary. Very easy to drive very smooth, while not having to slow down at all for sharp curves. Credit the light engine flywheels, smooth clutch, easy shift transmission and precise EFI fuel mapping. The pizza was still pretty warm when we got home. =D>

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Re: Bike cutting out, running rough. Ut-oh, This ain't good!

Post by OU812 »

Sounds like the locals cater to the dirt bike flavors(fork oil weight). :roll:
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