Pinhole in hard part of fuel line

[Parkblu]

It seems it's fuel-line month...

Before I got one fuel line clamp (already once recalled) to stop spraying bike and right leg with gas, one of the QDs just broke off, practically by looking at it.

With only two days until a major charity run (toys for tots in Fort Lauderdale), I didn't order new QDs but found hose menders, FI clamps and FI line. 20hrs before the run I got it all together, and it ran perfect for about two minutes. Then a pin-hole in the plastic part of the gas line (left of the where FI line ends, shortly before it curves) opened and started spraying a fine mist.

What to do? At this point it looks like a repairshop issue to me, doesn't it? Do you think I can ride it to the dealership with my temporary "plug" (FI hose with an FI clamp over it, see arrow):

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http://picasaweb.google.com/parkblue/Mo ... 4976578786

TIA,

-tobias.

[dgates]

Just a thought here...
Do you think you could trim the platic line removing the section with the leak and then getting a slightly longer FI hose?
If it were me, I would feel more secure with that type of temporary fix rahter than trying to patch a pinhole leak in a high pressure fuel line.
Good luck
Doug
Seattle

[Capt. Blackadder]

If the repaired area doesn't leak, then I'd say you're good to go. It's odd, however, that a pinhole would open up just like that. Wonder if the fuel pressure regulator may be malfunctioning, allowing higher fuel pressure than normal? A permanent fix for this may be to replace the entire fuel pressure regulator assembly.

[Parkblu]

Thanks for the tip, also to Doug.

Honestly, I was shocked that the plastic fuel line would be that brittle.

Heeding CycleRob's advice from a previous thread, I was extremely cautious not to flex or damage those two lines when taking the old QDs off. After the pinhole opened up, I still looked carefully if I had damaged it myself, but didn't.

Now I'm spooked a bit, and wonder when the next failure in those lines appears. Perhaps while riding in the middle of nowhere? I guess this calls for a dealer visit.

[CycleRob]

Designing and using hard plastic lines and fittings to contain high pressure fuel has got to be the the most dangerous, least reliable, ill conceived mind fart of a design as I've ever seen. Most auto mfgr's and especially Ford also use it extensively with less than rare, fiery results. Aged, heat cycle fatigued, fuel additive embrittled and mechanically stressed plastic fuel system parts get weak and fail

Parkblu, You have only 2 choices, the second one, a BMW Service Dept fuel rail replacement, is 100% reliable. Because a lot of the bike has to come apart for the replacement in addition to the ($) part, it is quite costly.

Your first choice is fix it and that can be anywhere from 50% to 100% reliable, depending on whether your installation stresses cause new fractures. The pin hole cannot be trusted to stay the same size with 53psi gasoline expanding the line. The best repair would be to cut the plastic line off right thru the pinhole. Try to make one chipless cut, with a hot knife, as any chips/fragments that get inside the pipe will cause serious problems. Then just get a longer 5/16" EFI hose to reach the short nub that's left and insert it part way around the bend. I would even use 2 clamps in the straight section, properly tightened, showing noticeable but minimal hose rubber crushing.


The pinhole likely was caused by the former owner or crushing over-tightness of the screw type clamp.


.

[Parkblu]

Cyclerob,

many thanks taking the time to respond and for your advice, solid as always.

I will attempt the fix; I can still throw major money at BMW if that does not work. Certainly the pinhole will expand under the FI pressure, but I also wonder what the condition of the rest of those lines may be. Shiver.

What on earth were they thinking at BMW Motorrad? "Let's overengineer some parts, and goof off at others. Prost!" ?

If I can find an email address in Munich I will write a friendly note in German about this whole problem area of QDs etc... as if they care. But still, they should get some feedback from the field, shouldn't they?

It'll be a few days before I get to it, but will post results when all is done. Again, thanks for your input everyone!

[Parkblu]

I followed Cyclerob's advice and finally got around to fix the pinhole problem. I cut the plastic fuel line with a hot knife, right at the pinhole. I then installed longer FI fuel line and FI clamps. Because the pinhole occurred near the bend of the line, I didn't have enough space to use two clamps. On the first short test, the bike ran without leaking.

Next, I will start riding it in my neighbourhood - within walking distance of the house and with a fire extinguisher in hand (that would be the clutch or the brake hand?) before I start venturing out into the big wide world again. I admit to being a bit spooked...

Finally, a compliment to the folks here:

The people on this board are just the best. A great bunch, and I must say, not only friendlier, but much more responsive, and more reliable in their advice than nearly all of our local riders, Beemer riders included. (Does that make a sad comment about the riding culture in SE Florida? You bet. We have some good riders here, but they are few and far in between.) If not for the posts on this board and your specific tips and input, I would not have known where to start and what to do.

Many thanks to everyone for their help [group-hug...] !

[Boxer]

With Cyclerob's help I just replaced that regulator assembly with the hard lines. It is a real bitch to get it into place under that battery box. You have to raise the frame to make it work.

What interested me about your problem was the fuel line itself. As Rob said, and as you proved by cutting the line, it is a hard plastic line. However, there are parts of it that are lined with a metal tubing and without cutting into it, I can't determine where the metal lining ends and the plastic-only sections begin. My next little project will be to cut up the old unit to see if I'm right.

Glad you got it fixed without having to install a new one. If you think replacing the fuel filter is dicey, you should try that regulator assembly.

[Parkblu]

Your are right on the money - only after I was finished and had the cut piece in hand I saw that it has a metal lining at the beginning. Probably to prevent crushing. I haven't been able to get out, otherwise I would reinserted it into the cut end, but I can tell you that it must be under 25mm (that would be one inch).

Knock on wood about the part me fixing it... I'll believe it when I have been riding without problems for a few miles or weeks.

[CycleRob]

Parkblu,

The brass insert is a cheap insurance policy likely there to ensure the plastic fuel line lasts longer than the warranty. I just became aware of it on my recent trip to Boxer's and I examined the new fuel rail. That insert can be recovered by using a heat gun on low to soften the plastic, maybe all the way to gooey. BUT, when you get it out, it may not fit in1side the new section.

Trying to put the insert, or most of it, inside the remaining repair section is something I recommend. You do have the smallish cut off section to practice with using high heat and sound judgment.

[Boxer]

Okay I cut the old apart just now and have a couple of pics for you.



This was the good side that didn't break off. The other side broke on me at the point marked.

Here is the little plastic nib pulled out of the tubing end.



And this is the end where it connects to the regulator/distributor center. Note that its the same plastic that comes off the FI end piece.



And this is the brass insert pulled out so you can see where it rests.


That tubing has very little flexibility, but when I tried to break it by bending it, I only managed to degrade the tubing and the outside layers of plastic broke up into mush. I could never get it to come completely apart by bending it back and forth. The weakest point in this system appears to be the little plastic nubs going into the ends of the tubing from the FI bridge itself...where mine broke.
Rob is right of course. The tubing itself has no integrity to hold a clamp. You would need to try the re-insertion of the insert for it to work at all.
Good luck. If you mess up the inserts in your trials, I have 2 extra.

[Parkblu]

Boxer,

great post, thanks! I'm wondering if I should fiddle with the setup if it holds without the lining. In any case, I will try to extract the brass liner so I have that. Looking at it on your pix* and the ridges on it, I seriously doubt though that I can insert it very far. Hopefully I'll have time this weekend to testride around the block 20 to 45 times If I post a black 1150R with gunshot holes next week, my neighbours didn't care for my testing.

*PS: I never get my pix posted properly. Did you upload yours or link to them stored elsewhere? (From the page source I think you have them on flickr, right?)

[Boxer]

*PS: I never get my pix posted properly. Did you upload yours or link to them stored elsewhere? (From the page source I think you have them on flickr, right?)

I use flickr for some, but they only display the last 200 pics for the freebie account. I also post some at my web site server "slablog.net". Then I just link to them. I'm looking at switching from flickr to another place that is really free.:-)

[csalt]

Parcblu,
Try to put the brass into an old piece of F.I. hose of the same diameter before forcing and galling up what you have to use on your bike. I doubt if you can re insert it. If it wont fit, go to the hardware store or Home Depot and find a pipe nipple or compression fitting that will fit the hose. You can cut any brass pieces with a hacksaw down to proper length.
Good Luck.

[Parkblu]

csalt, many thanks for the tip! A yacht captain buddy of mine pointed out that plastic fuel tubing is common on yachts, and they use metal lining tips. I'm heading over today to a hardware store that caters to boaters to see what I can dig up there. Btw, I did putter around the 'hood yesterday, for about 3 mi. Dry so far. Hopefully I didn't crush the fuel line yet without the lining

You're across Alligator Alley? When are we riding?

[Parkblu]

FYI: I've now ridden approx. 200 mi (pretty lame in nearly three weeks, isn't it? I know I know...) and have had no problems so far.

It was not possible to insert the short brass tube from the cut-off part back into the new end of the fuel line; the ribs won't let me. The tubing I can find locally is a touch too small and wiggles a bit around, so I didn't use it. When I go to Munich next time, I'll hit a hardware store and try to get some proper-diameter tubing (any other parts I can source for any forum members? As long as they fit into hand-luggage... To fend off the gods of fuel-line fires, I carry a small fire extinguisher with me for now, and decided that the bike won't give me any more trouble.

Many thanks to y'all for your help, especially to CycleRob and his hand-holding!

Peace,
-tobias.

[CycleRob]

I guess our phone conversations qualify as hand holding, but it's always better to speed up the process with a call and I'm eager to utilize my unlimited (continental US) toll call phone program.
Speaking of fuel leaks, I just got off the phone with call from Wayne ( TowerWorker ) and his bike is "spurting fuel under the tank". He wanted to confirm the hose ID size was 5/16".

Hello? BMW . . . . . You've got a problem out there!!

.

[Parkblu]

Cyclerob, whatever the reason I am very ! grateful for your help, as well anyone else who gave advice and shared their experience.

Re Wayne's question: yes, it's 5/16" ID (originally 8mm ID/13mm OD).

From the info on the subject on this forum, I assembled a PDF with all the pix and materials necessary (pretty large though). If Wayne sends me his email, I'll send him the PDF. Of course, I can email it to you too.

Today we had a charity ride benefiting the family of a police officer killed in the line of duty (executed would be more appropriate, sadly). Another 120 mi without problems. Except those nasty yellow fuel stains all over. But I found the right silver-spray some time ago, so I'll try some cosmetics next.

I checked on the German equivalent to this forum, called the Boxer-Forum: same fuel-line problems there. Appaling that BMW has not (or we haven't from it) acknowledged the issue but just plays dumb. Who, me?

[towerworker]

I've been thru these fuel line issues and QD's several years ago on my first BMW (an 03).
BMW and their infinite wisdom.

This time all I seemingly have is a slight leak. At CycleRob's advice I have simply tightened the FI clamps and all seems to be ok so far. But I have emergency repair parts stowed on the bike for the day the BMW superior quality engineering comes up again.

In BMW's defense they do a pretty darn good job all in all, but on this issue someone was sleeping at their work station.

Wayne

Parkblu---my email is wbowyer at comcast dot net

[DSKYZD]

I just want to express my sympathy to anyone who has dealt with these fuel line problems. Leaky clamps, brittle quick disconnects, fragile plastic lines...unreal.

Last week I went through the quick disconnect ordeal myself. New Omegas replaced the plastic ones, one of which cracked despite my ever careful handling. When replacing the rubber fuel line connected to these frail plastic lines I was very afraid of breaking one. Not fun!!

Glad you're running again Parkblu.

Excellent photos Boxer.


DSKYZD