Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

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ColumbiaBMW
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Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by ColumbiaBMW »

I haven't been on this site for a while (several years), but back when I had an R1150R I was bugging everyone on here about spline failure and final drive failure trying to figure out what the odds were of it happening to me, and then one day when the bike had about 35k miles I noticed my rear wheel had a considerable amount of play in it, so I sold it and got what I really wanted anyway...my current bike, a 2010 R1200R.

That was about 3 years ago and I've taken the R1200R all over the country now, and it's been the most incredible bike I have ever owned. But last year I took the bike into a dealership to have the rear wheel flange recall done, and the dealership told me that my final drive was on it's last leg and would need to be replaced soon. There is a VERY little amount of play/wobble in the rear wheel when on the center stand, so little that you can't see it but it can be felt. So...great. Now I'm worrying about the final drive and having to fork out for a $3k repair after just having had our 2nd baby.

I've always changed the final drive oil once a year, and have never noticed any metal in the oil, so I changed it once again (still no metal), and decided to take it to a local guy for a 2nd opinion. He's ridden and raced BMW's longer than I've been alive and he said he thought the small amount of play in the rear wheel just meant it was broken in now, and that he though it was perfectly fine.

So sorry for being that guy with the 1000th post about final drives, but I'm hoping some of you can talk me down from putting the R1200R up for sale and walking away from BMW for good. I've been looking at Super Teneres, but imho the R1200R is just such a better looking bike, more interesting, and I can't imagine that the Super Tenere handles anywhere near as well as the R1200R.

I guess my question is, is a little bit of play in the rear wheel normal? Or does that mean that final drive is going bad like the dealership told me?

Thanks everyone.
Last edited by ColumbiaBMW on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by mogu83 »

Thing with the R1200R is that the rear drive seems to be the only issue. Many people have over 100K on the drive with no problems (like me) but every time I have a drip of oil on the rim or hear a strange noise I hit the panic button. The design does have a lot of slop in it but every one I've seen seems the same.
I keep a spare drive on the shelf just in case. I'm sure you could pick one up for a lot less than $3K on e-bay, but make sure it fits your bike I think they changed the drive shaft around 2010.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by ColumbiaBMW »

I did just find one on ebay for $249 (+$30 for shipping) that matches my bike (matched the parts number), but the seller doesn't know much about the final drive like what year it is from, how many miles it has on it, etc. That might not be a bad spare though to have just in case.

Congrats on making it 100k miles with no issues!

But you think the little bit of play in the rear wheel is normal? Biggest concern is being out hundreds or thousands of miles from home, and having the final drive suddenly go out. Just hard to believe the dealership is right in saying it's going bad, when there is no sign of metal in the oil....
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by mogu83 »

I can't make a call if it's good or bad sitting here.
That said, I would imagine the dealer/service manager could have been using the free flange replacement as bait in a fishing expedition. My guy wanted me to leave my bike for service and to have gaskets replaced. I asked him if he knew the difference between a seep and a leak and told him I do my own service, he smiled and dropped the subject.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by ColumbiaBMW »

Yeah, and I'm not asking you to make a call on whether it's good or bad, but definitely appreciate your responses. I think I'm just trying to find out if there is an acceptable range of play in the rear wheel? I've read different things saying some play is ok, some say it should be completely tight...

I was thinking the same thing as you though, I'm thinking that was a fishing expedition by the service manager which is really disappointing. I've bought a few bikes from them over the years and didn't expect that from them.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by deilenberger »

How are you feeling the play? That's rather important. And if the main crown bearing is starting to go - there won't be any metal in the oil - that bearing lives outside the oil cavity. It also can be replaced.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by ColumbiaBMW »

deilenberger wrote:How are you feeling the play? That's rather important. And if the main crown bearing is starting to go - there won't be any metal in the oil - that bearing lives outside the oil cavity. It also can be replaced.
The play is right to left, when grabbing the wheel at 9 and 3. No discernible play up and down from 12 to 6.

Again though, this is a VERY slight amount of play, I cannot see it, but I can feel it when grabbing the wheel at 9 and 3. No wobble, grinding, tapping, etc while riding. So I was just wondering if anyone knew if some very minor play was ok, or if anyone else had experienced this on their bike only to have it continue to run smoothly for miles and miles.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by deilenberger »

There is actually a spec for allowable play when checking it at 9 and 3. Dunno where you'd find it - it may be on the Repair-ROM (aka RepRom). The amount is minor. And the dealer should know that number.

BTW - my first one on my '07 made it well over 100k (and is still going) and I fully expect my second one on the '12 to make it too.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by GTS29640 »

My bike is an 07 and the rear wheel play feels exactly as you describe. The spec is 1mm measured on the rim near the bead of the tire. I've never attached a dial indicator to measure what it actually is. Given the geometry the actual play inside the bearing is far less than you feel at the wheel.

A little play is a good thing. I'd be far more concerned if you didn't feel any. There's an optimum spot for ball bearing clearance and fatigue life. The problem is that the life can fall off rather dramatically when they get too tight. This may explain why some final drives seem to go forever while others seem to fail way short of where they should.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by ColumbiaBMW »

Update: The notchy feeling while spinning the wheel on the center stand definitely seemed to get worse, so I rolled the dice and ordered a final drive off of eBay that had no history of where it came from or how many miles it had, but it was a fraction of the price of a new one and less than half of what a used final drive costs elsewhere. Had a local mechanic (who also rides BMW's) swap the final drive out and yep, it's now clear as day that my final drive was about to fail any day. I used to feel a slight buzz in the footpegs that I just assumed was normal from the road and engine vibrations, but as soon as I took the bike out after the repair was done it was glass smooth. Notchiness/grinding I would feel while spinning the wheel on the center stand and the side to side play is completely gone!

This is a good example of how when something goes bad over a longer period of time you don't really notice it getting worse, but as soon as it was fixed I thought, "Oh yeah...this is definitely how it should feel normally."

So still not thrilled that my final drive started failing at about 15k miles on the bike, but glad that I was able to repair it for fairly cheap (only spent $463 for parts & labor) using used parts, and I'm glad to have my bike back running like new now. Thanks everyone for all the replies above.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by mogu83 »

How are you going to handle the flange recall. Does the used drive have the new flange.
The reason I ask. I have a spare rear drive that has the old flange (no cracks) but my bike has had the recall done (new flange). I assume the dealer won't just put the new flange on a drive I walk in with as he would have no VIN number to charge the work to.
Anyone have any experience with this situation?
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by Newportcycle »

Glad your up and running. Your issue surprise's me, the 2010 to 2014 final drives on the "R" does not use a sealed bearing, this bearing is oil lubricated. I wouldn't have expected it to go bad unless there was a catastrophic seal leak or no final drive oil maintenance had been performed.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by deilenberger »

Newportcycle wrote:Glad your up and running. Your issue surprise's me, the 2010 to 2014 final drives on the "R" does not use a sealed bearing, this bearing is oil lubricated. I wouldn't have expected it to go bad unless there was a catastrophic seal leak or no final drive oil maintenance had been performed.
Do you have any documentation you can point me to that shows this? I haven't seen anything about what would be a major change in the rear-drive design and would be interested in seeing what was done.

TIA!
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by Newportcycle »

I must admit that statement should not have been presented as fact, but speculation after examination of the latest parts catalog's. I have NOT opened the final drive case on my bike to prove this theory correct. I have been trying to determine the cause of gray/milky gear case oil in my final drive and thought that maybe the oil I was using was some how contaminating the "Sealed" bearing everyone was warning me about. So I undertook some investigation with a mechanical engineer that I'm acquainted with, our deduction after examination was the design would allow for oil lubrication of the Grooved Ball Bearing. Looking at the parts fische provided by Max BMW for the R1200R, 2010 to 2014, Diagram #33_1637, Bearing Ring Gear Cover with Vent. In this diagram and the subsequent "parts photos" bearing #9, 33 11 7 722 799 GROOVED BALL BEARING, is illustrated and photographed as an open race ball bearing, not sealed as previous iterations of this design are. Also, the inboard lip seal as found on previous models which would provide isolation for this bearing from the gear case oil has been omitted from this design, leading one to believe that it is an oil lubricated design.

If I've made a statement in error, I will stand corrected. Lord knows there is enough misinformation on the web, sometimes I'm a little lazy in my postings and do not fully clarify my statements or positions.

As a matter of opinion I firmly believe that any engineer who place's a permanent factory lubricated sealed bearing only mm away from an oil containing gear case and does not make his design and bearing selection to run in continuous lubrication is a Nincompoop.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by deilenberger »

Newportcycle wrote:I must admit that statement should not have been presented as fact, but speculation after examination of the latest parts catalog's. I have NOT opened the final drive case on my bike to prove this theory correct. I have been trying to determine the cause of gray/milky gear case oil in my final drive and thought that maybe the oil I was using was some how contaminating the "Sealed" bearing everyone was warning me about. So I undertook some investigation with a mechanical engineer that I'm acquainted with, our deduction after examination was the design would allow for oil lubrication of the Grooved Ball Bearing. Looking at the parts fische provided by Max BMW for the R1200R, 2010 to 2014, Diagram #33_1637, Bearing Ring Gear Cover with Vent. In this diagram and the subsequent "parts photos" bearing #9, 33 11 7 722 799 GROOVED BALL BEARING, is illustrated and photographed as an open race ball bearing, not sealed as previous iterations of this design are. Also, the inboard lip seal as found on previous models which would provide isolation for this bearing from the gear case oil has been omitted from this design, leading one to believe that it is an oil lubricated design.

If I've made a statement in error, I will stand corrected. Lord knows there is enough misinformation on the web, sometimes I'm a little lazy in my postings and do not fully clarify my statements or positions.

As a matter of opinion I firmly believe that any engineer who place's a permanent factory lubricated sealed bearing only mm away from an oil containing gear case and does not make his design and bearing selection to run in continuous lubrication is a Nincompoop.
I found the two drawings:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showpar ... Id=33_1782

and

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showpar ... Id=33_1627

The first one does show a seal between the oil chamber/housing and the bearing, the second shows a seal outside the bearing - which as you noted is shown as an open bearing.

Interesting. The two seals are also slightly different ID - indicating to me they're on a different part of the axle-shaft.

I think you're right.. and probably the first one to notice this (at least outside the BMW organization..) Wonder what the bearing failure rates are for the oil lubricated bearing design? Part of the reason that the original design was isolated from the oil might have involved the oil being spec'd as a "lifetime" fill. And I imagine the reason they're very quiet about the design change is to avoid triggering an NHTSA investigation and subsequent recall requiring them to replace all the old design rear drives.

I'm going to pass this along to Paul Glaves - who I think might find it interesting. Also wonder when it went into production? For my old '07 it shows both an old style parts diagram and a parts diagram for the new rear drive design. I'm guessing they assume that replacements would be done with the new design - at least if it's a new replacement drive.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by Newportcycle »

I suspect you are correct in assuming that the newer design is being show as a "replacement" to the older design.

My curiosity now is can the previous designs be retrofit with the open race grove ball bearing and effectively "switched" over to the newer design? One would have to make some measurements on the axle's from the newer gear case's and the old ones to make this determination I imagine.

As for longevity of the newer design, I guess time will tell, there are certain advantages to "oil lubrication" and with this design I would certainly recommend, and am doing so with my bike, oil changes at a frequency equal to the engine oil, mostly because they are easy and only cost $2.00 each time. But who knows what bearing loading/service life was specified by BMW, this alone will be the ultimate determining factory to bearing life.

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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by David R »

I have had my FD seal out, it was leaking.

I had to heat the flange to get it off, then the seal was there, next.

I could see the "big" (not so big) ball bearing with oil in it.

My seal failed, so did the ring it rides on which is replaceable. (Item 3)

2012 R1200R. Maintained properly.

Water can get in the FD when power washing. I had it happen a few times, now I am more careful,
so it is clear when I change the oi every tire change.

First change oil looked like mud, after that, clear or had a little moisture until I stopped power washing there.

Nothing hurt, no major oil loss, NO play in FD even when Hot.

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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by ColumbiaBMW »

mogu83 wrote:How are you going to handle the flange recall.
I still have the old failed final drive that has the new flange on it, so I'll take that to a dealer and ask them to take the new flange off the failed final drive and put it on my "new" used final drive that's on the bike now.
Newportcycle wrote:Glad your up and running. Your issue surprise's me, the 2010 to 2014 final drives on the "R" does not use a sealed bearing, this bearing is oil lubricated. I wouldn't have expected it to go bad unless there was a catastrophic seal leak or no final drive oil maintenance had been performed.
I purchased the bike a few years ago with about 9k miles on it, and as soon as I purchased it I changed the final drive oil and continued to do so every year. The dealer (same dealer that sold me the bike) told me the final drive was going bad when the bike had 14k miles and was in the shop for the flange recall. At the time I couldn't feel anything noticeable so I continued to ride it, until the play in the rear wheel got too much for my liking at 20k miles.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by Newportcycle »

Thanks for the update Bryan, sorry for your troubles, gald your up and running.

David, thanks for the conformation, glad you've had no issues.
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Re: Final Drive Play (Sorry guys)

Post by deilenberger »

Newportcycle wrote:I suspect you are correct in assuming that the newer design is being show as a "replacement" to the older design.

My curiosity now is can the previous designs be retrofit with the open race grove ball bearing and effectively "switched" over to the newer design? One would have to make some measurements on the axle's from the newer gear case's and the old ones to make this determination I imagine.

As for longevity of the newer design, I guess time will tell, there are certain advantages to "oil lubrication" and with this design I would certainly recommend, and am doing so with my bike, oil changes at a frequency equal to the engine oil, mostly because they are easy and only cost $2.00 each time. But who knows what bearing loading/service life was specified by BMW, this alone will be the ultimate determining factory to bearing life.

Jerry
I sort of doubt if the switchover could be made on an older drive since the seal diameters have changed, meaning the location of the bearing also changed (moved inboard most likely - to the area that use to have the seal.) There were a lot of changes made when BMW added the drain and fill plugs - and I'd have to guess that any R12 with drain/fill plugs has the newer design with a wet bearing. And that reminds me that I could stop riding mine long enough to do the rear-drive oil change.. the XO oil is sitting on the shelf waiting to go in.
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