2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Topics related to the ownership, maintenance, equipping, operation, and riding of the R1200R.

Moderator: Moderators

Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

I find a rubber plug on the differential of my 2012 R.What is that?Did not have it on my previous 2010 R.Is this a breather plug?If it is,than 180ml of diffy oil quantity has been changed to a higher amount of oil.Logically it will not blow the seal,scince there is a breather plug/if it is a breather plug/.Any thoughts???

Steve H.
David R
Basic User
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:46 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by David R »

I have drained it with the drain plug and filled it in the vent with the recommended amount. I think its 180 ml or 6 ounces. This can be done with out taking the wheel off.

My FD started leaking. I cleaned the vent and the leak went away. That was at 20,000, its now at 33,000 with no leaks. I change the FD oil every tire change.
User avatar
mogu83
Lifer
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:40 am
Donating Member #: 0
Location: Harry Costello Jersey Shore, NJ

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by mogu83 »

Sometime in 2010 they started to use a vented rear drive on the Rs and RTs. I bought a 2010 RD off E-Bay hoping to get a vented one but I wasn't that lucky. Got a great price on a drive with less than 20K so it will stay on the shelf.
Harry Costello -- Jersey Shore
2007 R1200R
1974 + 75 CB125S
1971 R75
2011 Sportster
BMWMOA 57358
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

I am just wondering...there is a vent plug ...OK!Why should we stick with 180ml of oil -recommended for non went diffies-.My best guess is to go back to original 200 or 220 ml of diffiy lube to make shure there is a sufficient amont of lube for f.drive.Knowing from other forums,180ml of lube might be not sufficient enough to do a good lubing. Plus the gears caring the oil by themselves/lubing each other/BUT the bearings suffering of lack of lube carried oil away by gears.Logically,the oil level droping to almost null, while de bike is running,and there is no oil for bearings left.Isen't that interesting question?I would say,for wented diffies got to go back up to 200 or 220 ml of lube.It can not blow the seal-there is a went plug-I assume.
This is just a braining based on the logical facts,but worth to think about it.

Steve H.
User avatar
MTBeemer
Lifer
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:02 pm
Donating Member #: 1043
Location: Big Sky Country

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by MTBeemer »

The bearings in the final drive are sealed so lubrication from the gear oil is not an issue.

What does the owner's manual and service ROM for the 2011 and newer models say about FD oil volume?
Kevin Huddy
Intrepid Incompetent
Canyon Creek, MT
Team Pterodactyl Montana Outpost
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

It does say nothing.All it say is"shaft drive with bevel gears".I did not got smarter of it.No oil quantity at all.It is like a"secret"BMW does not want to releise for us,or simply BMW does NOT KNOWING.They are in doubth,I assume.That why they are silent,if giving an instruction wrong,going to loos a lot -lots of money.Just imagine that.One of the world leading company ,and still behaving that cheap-----sorry,but that is a shame.
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

BTW,I heard from Don E.and now from you Kevin,abouthTrany and FD SEALD bearings.I never had achance to take them a part,but in engineering sence does not make any senc to have seald bearings where lub oil is present.The same oil lubing gears should lube the bearings too.That is simple.
deilenberger
Honorary Lifer
Posts: 4210
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 9:21 pm
Donating Member #: 0
Location: New Jersey USA
Contact:

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by deilenberger »

Steve H. wrote:BTW,I heard from Don E.and now from you Kevin,abouthTrany and FD SEALD bearings.I never had achance to take them a part,but in engineering sence does not make any senc to have seald bearings where lub oil is present.The same oil lubing gears should lube the bearings too.That is simple.
It may not make sense - but the older rear drive used on the K1200LT and other models had plenty of bearing failures - where the bearings were oil lubricated.

On our drives - the only bearings I believe are exposed to oil (not sealed) are the needle bearings at the small end of the crown gear (starboard side of the drive.) The pinion bearings are sealed, and the big crown bearing is outside of the housing and sealed (it isn't exposed at all to the oil - there is a seal between it and the oil.)

Part of the engineering thinking going on may be (and I certainly can't speak for the Germans.. but I used to do some of this sort of thing) - having a sealed bearing allows you to use bearing specific lubricant for the bearing, and not to contaminate it with gear lubricant (which is made for a sliding contact surface) that may also contain contaminants from the gears themselves.

BMW does the same thing on the transmissions - the majority of bearings are sealed self-lubricated bearings. If you see dark oil come out of the transmission you have a bearing failing. Ditto on the rear-drive (and it has to be a pinion bearing since that's the only sealed one in contact with the oil.)

More then you ever wanted to know.. :)
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
2012 R1200R - I love this bike!
deilenberger
Honorary Lifer
Posts: 4210
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 9:21 pm
Donating Member #: 0
Location: New Jersey USA
Contact:

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by deilenberger »

Oh - to the original question from Steve..

I suspect the oil change quantity stayed the same. I see no big advantage to more oil in the drive. Sometimes too much oil can lead to "frothing" (think of a milk-shake) which doesn't provide optimal lubrication. Could you put more in? Guess you could. Would it be a good idea? Dunno, you'd be the test case. I haven't heard of anyone else winging it with their own specifications.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
2012 R1200R - I love this bike!
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

Hi,Don!
1. I do not want to make up my own specs.
2. I changed diffy oil first time at 6000mls the original factory oil come out gray (darkish).Is that meaning a bearing problem at the very new bike?? :-k
Or...BMW using molybdenum disulfide additive in the factory fill? 8-[ ....Why? :?
If they do using graphite...they should recommend it for oncoming oil changes at least as an additive.Remember,Honda molybdenum grease used by BMW owners as a drive shaft splin lube. :?:
I understand now BMW using seald bearings.Ok.That is there concept.Those seals engineered to keep out diffy oil from bearings(with more or less success)if those seals last long enough. :?: :?:
If I am right,seald bearings are lubricated with grease.Grease is recommended for relatively lower rpms.For high rpms-oil...but may be I forgat thinks about bearings :?: :?: Well,aging. 8-[
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

I do not "winging"my "own"specifications.I do understand the foaming effect of the oil when it loosing the lubricating ability cosed by air bubles in it.Nobody wants to see air bubles in the oil.Air does not lubricate anything.
And as last,I am not the one who is "winging",just want to see diferent opinions learning from them.
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

One more think...think.
In the past few monts there have not to much posts on this forum,except few of us,including moderators.Other members got silent,or just left.I think this forum is slowing down. :-k Oil-no oil I don't really care.I will solw my problem on my own,as ollways did.To poke each other left on this forum,does not make any sence.
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

"As more I know,Irealised how little I know".Some one a lot smarter thanI am said that a long time ago.
David R
Basic User
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:46 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by David R »

Many here have said the first diff oil change was an odd color. Mine was too.

I would not worry about it. I use 180 ml just like it says. I change the diff oil every tire change.

David
Steve H.
Basic User
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Steve H. »

Thanks,David!
I will go with 180ml to. :)
deilenberger
Honorary Lifer
Posts: 4210
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 9:21 pm
Donating Member #: 0
Location: New Jersey USA
Contact:

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by deilenberger »

Steve H. wrote:Hi,Don!
1. I do not want to make up my own specs.
Hi Steve,

Neither would I, but.. you did ask.
Steve H. wrote: 2. I changed diffy oil first time at 6000mls the original factory oil come out gray (darkish).Is that meaning a bearing problem at the very new bike?? :-k
Normal. ZF left some muck (tech-term) in the drives that caused this, and may well have contributed to a lot of the failures that were seen early on. The failures pretty much stopped once BMW spec'd a 600 mile break-in oil change for the rear drives.
Steve H. wrote: Or...BMW using molybdenum disulfide additive in the factory fill? 8-[ ....Why? :?
If they do using graphite...they should recommend it for oncoming oil changes at least as an additive.Remember,Honda molybdenum grease used by BMW owners as a drive shaft splin lube. :?:
Don't know what it was that was used or left in the drives. If you look at http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?mod ... g=33&fg=76, and then look specifically at the starboard end bearing (small end of the crown gear) - PN#14 - it's a caged needle bearing. Usually these are supplied packed with grease to hold the needles in place during assembly. If that was the case - the initial gear oil would tend to wash out that grease and become discolored. It's entirely possible what is seen on the first oil-change is this assembly grease washout. Once it's flushed out that should be the end of it (and on my drive - whenever I've changed the oil - what comes out looks identical to what I'm putting back in.)

Moly/MDS is good for certain specific lubrication needs - and gears are only in that category when they're basically running dry. MDS is for "sliding contact" lubrication. - ie - splines are a perfect example, as are CV joints. It isn't good for bearing lube since it may build up in the races causing the balls/rollers to slide rather then roll, which will rather quickly destroy the bearing. The concentration is also important since MDS by itself is a sticky paste like substance which won't flow. To be useable - it has to be mixed into a base grease that works to carry it where it's needed.
Steve H. wrote: I understand now BMW using seald bearings.Ok.That is there concept.Those seals engineered to keep out diffy oil
from bearings(with more or less success)if those seals last long enough. :?: :?:
Seem to be. There are a lot of drives out there with a lot of miles on them. The failure rate isn't all that high. It happens, but much less so since BMW implemented the lower fill quantity and the initial oil change. It isn't anything that has ever kept me awake nights worrying about it happening.
Steve H. wrote: If I am right,seald bearings are lubricated with grease.Grease is recommended for relatively lower rpms.For high rpms-oil...but may be I forgat thinks about bearings :?: :?: Well,aging. 8-[
Depends on the bearing design. Think about your wheel bearings.. sealed, high-speed, high-load with an impact rating. And they're lubricated with grease.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
2012 R1200R - I love this bike!
User avatar
Bob Ain't Stoppin'
Member
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:50 am

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Bob Ain't Stoppin' »

Steve H. I think the forum slow down is a function of a very harsh winter. I'm not thinking about bikes until just recently. (Just bought a Yamaha FJ-09 in fact). Perhaps the traffic will pick up as spring sets in.

About the bearings being sealed. Would it not be fair to say that the output bearings on the rear drive are a low speed application? Turning at rear wheel speed can't be all that fast. The high speed input bearing is oil lubricated as Don E. indicated. I find it odd to use a ball bearing on the output of the rear drive. Should be a tapered roller IMO. But I don't really know what the bearing in there is. There are some ball bearings made to accept some thrust loadings, so maybe it's ok?

I change my rear drive oil every other oil change.

Carry on.
deilenberger
Honorary Lifer
Posts: 4210
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 9:21 pm
Donating Member #: 0
Location: New Jersey USA
Contact:

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by deilenberger »

Bob Ain't Stoppin' wrote: I find it odd to use a ball bearing on the output of the rear drive. Should be a tapered roller IMO. But I don't really know what the bearing in there is. There are some ball bearings made to accept some thrust loadings, so maybe it's ok?
There are some that can accept some side-thrust. A tapered roller bearing generally needs to be shimmed to work effectively, and if you think about it - how would the crown gear be kept from pushing/pulling the bearing apart. You'd really need a tapered bearing at each end of the shaft with the tapers facing in to each other. Then you'd need a way to shim the bearings while still retaining correct tooth engagement of the crown gear with the pinion gear. This is sort of the design the older (R11xx, K11xx) bikes used - and that failed with some regularity and was notorious for being difficult to shim correctly. With the ball bearing - the only shimming needed is for the gear tooth engagement. The other end of the crown gear can slide in the needle bearing.

I think BMW had a few problems with these drives initially:

1 - Excess fluid didn't leave enough expansion space for the oil, and it pushed out the starboard side seal, with resultant overheating of the rear drive and failure (these were the most spectacular failures - seen and fussed over with one of the Iron-Butt events where several failed.)

2 - Contaminated "Lifetime" oil in the drives. When I bought mine - the rear drive oil was spec'd as "Lifetime" with no requirement to change it ever, even at the initial 600 mile service. Mine WAS changed (I watched them do it) and it came out as a gray sludgey looking oil. Something obviously "in it".. The mechanic was smart enough to flush some new oil through the drive and get out all of the sludge. It was then filled with the 80-90W GL5 lube that BMW spec's. Every oil change since then (about 24,000 mile intervals as spec'd by BMW) - it has come out looking just like it went it, clear and no sign of any sludge. BMW also now spec's an initial service oil change at the 600 mile service.

3 - Problems with the initial roller bearing. The original bearing is NLA, and the new one supposedly has one more ball then the original one had. Dunno when the switchover was made, perhaps someone does and will post it.

Later drives seem to have been reliable, and I've heard of very few drive failures on the R1200R - perhaps due to it being a bit later model, and perhaps because it's lighter than any other model, and less likely to be used touring-2-up.

The breather is an obvious reaction to #1.. and while not a bad idea, does allow for contamination of the oil with time as air is drawn in/out of the rear drive with heating cycles, dragging moisture along with it. On the drives with the vent - I'd reduce the oil change interval to 12,000 miles since it's much more likely to be contaminated by moisture, and it's way easier to change then the early sealed ones.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
2012 R1200R - I love this bike!
User avatar
Bob Ain't Stoppin'
Member
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:50 am

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by Bob Ain't Stoppin' »

Good info Don. As it happens, I rebuild right angle gear drives as part of my work. Have done several hundred. They are much larger than what you see on a bike or car, but the taper roller bearings are really pretty easy to shim. I do suppose that taper rollers would be much more expensive than the ball bearing. The only ones I buy are Timken.

Image
deilenberger
Honorary Lifer
Posts: 4210
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 9:21 pm
Donating Member #: 0
Location: New Jersey USA
Contact:

Re: 2011 and on R1200R has a breather plug on FD???

Post by deilenberger »

Bob Ain't Stoppin' wrote:Good info Don. As it happens, I rebuild right angle gear drives as part of my work. Have done several hundred. They are much larger than what you see on a bike or car, but the taper roller bearings are really pretty easy to shim. I do suppose that taper rollers would be much more expensive than the ball bearing. The only ones I buy are Timken.
Bob - that is a healthy size right-angle drive.. :)

I think BMW's problem with the tapered bearing goes back to the prior generation of drives that used this sort of design.. where shimming from the vendor (probably Getrag) was erratic, and caused the failure of a lot of drives. You can see the design here: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=33&fg=76 - a large ball bearing on the big end of the crown gear, and a smaller tapered bearing where they currently use a needle bearing. If the shimming wasn't correct - the large ball bearing failed.

The design engineering has to be difficult, because the loading forces on the bearings aren't just in one plane - think about the forces on the wheel when cornering - that adds an variable offset forces to the equation.. plus impact loading when the wheel/tire hits a bump. Of course one might figure after 90 years using this sort of design they'd have it worked out.. ;)
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
2012 R1200R - I love this bike!
Post Reply